Full transcript:

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eighty-Six of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

A hallmark of multiple sclerosis is a new brain lesion. The active inflammation normally goes away in about 4 to 6 weeks, disappearing from contrast-enhanced detection by MRI scans. More recently, in some people with MS, researchers have found smaller longer-lasting inflammatory lesions outside the brain, in the surrounding lining called the leptomeninges, as well as evidence that they may play a role in progressive disease. The tiny compartments are associated with more severe disability, worse outcomes, and nearby gray matter demyelination.

Dr. Pavan Bhargava, a neuroimmunology fellow at the Johns Hopkins University MS Center in Baltimore, Maryland, has started a phase I trial to slow progressive disease by targeting the B cells in these follicles. He is testing an anti-B cell antibody called rituximab, using the drug intrathecally—that is, injecting it directly into the cerebrospinal fluid of patients with primary or secondary progressive MS, so that more of it reaches the inflamed pockets in the brain lining. We spoke at the ECTRIMS meeting last fall in Barcelona, where he described to me the rationale for this experimental treatment approach.

Interviewee – Pavan Bhargava

In 2004, what was noted was that in autopsies of MS patients, there were collections of lymphoid cells in the meninges, and these aggregates of lymphoid cells were noted to abut areas of the cortex that demonstrated demyelination. So this suggested that possibly these collections of B and T lymphocytes that were in the meninges might be driving some of the cortical demyelination that is seen commonly in patients who have progressive MS.

So the idea behind using rituximab intrathecally is that we want to, first of all, get as much rituximab as possible into the CSF [cerebral spinal fluid] and into the brain, because when we give rituximab IV, less than 0.1% usually gets into the CNS [central nervous system]. So we're trying to target the B cells that are found in these lymphoid follicles, and we're trying to get as much of the rituximab into the CNS as possible. So that's the rationale behind using intrathecal rituximab in progressive MS patients.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

Do the patients you're selecting just have visible leptomeningeal lesions, or do they have to have abnormal CSF – IgG elevated or oligoclonal bands – or how are you selecting them?

Dr. Bhargava

So in our trial, we are selecting patients using an MRI finding that was described now a couple of years ago that on a time-delayed post-contrast flare image, in about a third of MS patients you can actually see contrast-enhancing lesions, not in the brain parenchyma, but actually in the leptomeninges. And a recent paper from the NIH showed that in a couple of these patients who had contrast-enhancing leptomeningeal lesions, when they came to autopsy they could identify clusters of lymphocytes and macrophages that corresponded to these contrast-enhancing leptomeningeal lesions. So in our study, we're basically screening progressive MS patients with an MRI, and are only including patients in this study who do have evidence of these leptomeningeal contrast-enhancing lesions, because we feel that this is a marker of leptomeningeal inflammation in these patients.

MSDF

And have you run any patients yet?

Dr. Bhargava

So we have 5 patients currently in the study, of whom 4 have actually completed their treatment phase of the trial. And our goal in this study is to enroll 12 patients. And the primary outcome is safety. So, you know, we want to know that using rituximab intrathecally in MS is safe. But our secondary outcomes include looking at the change in the MRI lesions that we noted at baseline, and then we're also going to look at the change in immune populations in the CSF and some biomarkers for axonal damage and chemokines that are associated with these lymphoid follicles.

MSDF

Are these lesions similar to ones in the brain parenchyma that come and go, or will you be sure that your treatment is what caused any difference?

Dr. Bhargava

So these lesions that we note on the MRI in the meninges, unlike lesions in the brain parenchyma, where you note contrast enhancement when they're new and active, and then about 4 to 8 weeks later, they stop taking up contrast, the lesions in the meninges continue to enhance for years. So there's data that these can continue to remain the same and enhance for over 3 years. So that's really why we decided to use this as a secondary endpoint, because we have not seen changes in these lesions over time. And so if we actually saw a change, it might suggest that it was secondary to our intervention.

MSDF

Since this is a phase I trial, do you have a control group, or you're just looking at the ones you're treating?

Dr. Bhargava

Yeah, so because this is a phase I trial and the primary outcome is just safety, this is open-label, and so everyone in this trial is going to receive intrathecal rituximab.

MSDF

When do you expect to see any results, or have you?

Dr. Bhargava

We will be analyzing all this data once we've accrued the patients, and we're hoping to complete recruitment in the next 3 to 4 months, and then we follow all these patients for a year. So probably at some time towards the end of next year [2016] we should have results from the trial.

MSDF

Is this a test of concept, not only of rituximab but of what these leptomeningeal lesions mean?

Dr. Bhargava

So yes and no. In a way, there's a proof of concept because if we were to see changes in these lesions that otherwise remain really stable, that might suggest that a drug that could possibly deplete B cells makes a change in these leptomeningeal lesions. But it's also possible that perhaps B cells are not a sufficient target, or that we're not able to deplete B cells that are within these structures. And so, you know, there are some confounding factors that possibly could lead to this trial not being successful. But this is what we plan to look at is, if we actually see a change in these lesions, then to us that would be a kind of a proof of concept that rituximab might be able to effect these leptomeningeal lymphoid aggregates.

MSDF

Is there evidence that these aggregates are pathogenic?

Dr. Bhargava

There is evidence in terms of previous studies where they looked in autopsies in both primary progressive and secondary progressive patients. They found that people who had evidence of meningeal follicles had more cortical demyelination compared to those who did not. So that is indirect evidence that perhaps these follicles play a role in disease progression and may be pathogenic. We don't have direct evidence yet in patients who have been, say, prospectively followed to suggest that these lesions are causing damage.

MSDF

Are these aggregates solely B cell, or what else is there?

Dr. Bhargava

You know, these aggregates have B cells, but they also have plasma cells, they have follicular helper T cells, and they have follicular dendritic cells. So there are multiple cell populations that make up these follicles, and each of these populations produce factors that keep this follicle going. And so perhaps disrupting just one component of this follicle may not be sufficient, and we may need to then expand our targets and try to target multiple cell populations at the same time.

MSDF

I suppose, though, if you do interrupt the sort of chain of events, it may be sufficient to break one link.

Dr. Bhargava

Right. That's our hope with this trial is that taking out maybe one key player in this follicle might be sufficient to then disrupt this vicious cycle, but only time will tell.

MSDF

Is there evidence that lymphoid aggregates may exist in the meninges in people without any evidence of any disease?

Dr. Bhargava

We don't know the answer for that for sure, but in the study from the NIH, they didn't really see these contrast-enhancing lesions in healthy volunteers. So that would suggest that perhaps these are not found in healthy people without disease.

MSDF

I'm just thinking in terms of normal brain protective mechanisms, whether things like this fight off disease.

Dr. Bhargava

That really would need a study looking at the meninges in people who pass away from other diseases; in, say, not autoimmune diseases. And the reason why this is such a fairly recent discovery is just because when pathologists used to look at brains at autopsy, they would just rip off the meninges and throw those away and just look at the brain. So I'm sure this question could be answered, but right now we don't know. There is actually some emerging evidence that perhaps these follicles might be seen in other CNS immune diseases, for example, Rasmussen's encephalitis. There was a study from our center where they noted presence of possible B cell follicles in biopsy material from patients with Rasmussen's encephalitis, and so it's possible that this might happen in other autoimmune disorders. But this process of ectopic lymphoid neogenesis seems to happen mostly in autoimmune diseases, like type 1 diabetes or Sjögren's syndrome or rheumatoid arthritis, and so it seems to be related to autoimmunity.

MSDF

If this pans out what you're doing now, would rituximab be pursued, or do you foresee other monoclonals coming along that may be more appropriate to carry forward?

Dr. Bhargava

I think part of that would depend on what we see in this study, and if we don't see a robust effect then we might switch to a different target. And also, you know, we may want to target more than just the B cells. You know, there are other therapies coming down the pipeline, like anti-CD19, which targets a broader range of the B cell lineage, and then perhaps we might try to target like, say, plasma cells. So I do foresee that if we continue with intrathecal therapy, we would end up trying to use other monoclonals, as well.

MSDF

Is this a feasible technique in many patients, a wide array, or is it very specialized and would have to be restricted?

Dr. Bhargava

It is not really that difficult to perform, because we basically are performing a lumbar puncture and are injecting the drug through a lumbar puncture, and so it should be feasible. Of course, it is still an invasive procedure. However, if we really did see a benefit from this, then I think it would probably be worth that effort and risk.

MSDF

Have we missed anything, or anything important to add on the topic?

Dr. Bhargava

It's important to continue to try to understand how this process is affecting the brain and whether it's actually causing damage. And I think more studies looking at perhaps imaging to see how these lesions are affecting the brain parenchyma around them may give us more insights into how pathogenic these lesions are. And then I think from our study we might begin to understand whether we're able to actually make a difference to these lesions that we're seeing.

MSDF

Very good, I appreciate it, thank you.

Dr. Bhargava

Thank you.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty-Six of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

Full Transcript:

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eighty-five of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

Many MS patients will require a change of drug therapy over the course of their disease, possibly because of relapse or tolerability. At last fall's ECTRIMS conference in Barcelona, I spoke with Eva Havrdová MD PhD, professor of neurology and head of the MS Center at Charles University in Prague, Czech Republic, about when and how to change therapy. I first asked her how she detects a need to change therapy because of a suboptimal response.

Interviewee – Eva Havrdová

It's very difficult to find the right solution for each patient, but as to our opinion, the best thing is to really start early treatment and monitor closely the patient. It means that you look not only at relapses or progression. It's too late. We also look at MRI after six months after starting treatment. And I think it is now quite proven that, if the patient has either relapse or new MRI activity, the response in the first year is suboptimal and the treatment should be already changed.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

So you have a very high suspicion?

Dr. Havrdová

Yes, definitely very high suspicion. And you can add some quality of life measures. You can add cognitive measures. You can ask the patient, what’s the level of fatigue. And of course, all this together brings you to the solution to change the treatment.

MSDF

Do you generally find that you will pick something sooner on MRI then by patient report?

Dr. Havrdová

Yes, of course, because the events on MRI occur 10 times more frequently. But on the other hand, as to regulations for reimbursement, I cannot change the treatment just based on MRI in our country. So definitely in the future, this will be an option. But we need more data to prove to the sick fund that it's really worth doing it because if you do these changes and find optimal treatment for patients early, then the patient stays at work, and of course, the cost effectiveness of the drugs increases.

MSDF

I suppose that depends on having a unified system, which is not built into silos. You know, when you get one payer here and one payer there; they don't care what's coming out of the other guy's pocket.

Dr. Havrdová

Yeah, yeah, of course. It's very difficult; and therefore, I think we need guidelines. And one of the ECTRIMS activities is to start working on some guidelines, and I hope next year we will have it.

MSDF

So what do you do when you find something that would raise your suspicion or prompt you to do something different?

Dr. Havrdová

We monitor the patient even more closely, in three-month intervals. And very often we see that the patient develops a relapse after some MRI activity occurs. So we can change the treatment.

MSDF

Do you often escalate the present drug? Or switch drugs immediately?

Dr. Havrdová

We have to start with injectables in our country, not with oral drugs, which is the mainstream now in other countries. And we hope we will also push our authorities to this strand because patients, of course, want orals. On the other hand, the safety of injectables is well-proven for more than 20 years. So for those especially who want to get pregnant, the safety is number one. And we try to switch as early as possible, because if another relapse comes, the relapse may be disabling, and we are just losing time in the brain of the patient. And as you know, here at ECTRIMS, the one day before, the health of brain was promoted in MS. And we would like to stick to this idea.

MSDF

So it sounds like you change drugs, not escalate the present drug?

Dr. Havrdová

The escalation means the change as well. So we try not to switch within the first line, but we want to see more effect. Just because of intolerability or some known adherence of patient on injectables, we can switch within the line if there is no activity of the disease itself. Or if there are neutralizing antibodies on interferon, we can switch to Copaxone. But on the other hand, it was now published, based on data in MS base, which is a big registry of real world data, that it's really worth escalating to the higher efficacy drugs because you can reach much better effect.

MSDF

Over the years, do most patients require some change?

Dr. Havrdová

Most of them do, though there are patients who are completely stable and not developing higher EDSS steps on injectables, but it's less than 25% of them.

MSDF

Is there any way to generalize and say what the time course is? Or is it so variable?

Dr. Havrdová

No, it's very variable. And we do not know if it is based just on genes or on environment or lifestyle changes the patient is willing to undertake. We do not know yet.

MSDF

So I don't know if you can generalize because each country is different, but do you have some scheme or algorithm in mind about how you would escalate therapy?

Dr. Havrdová

The problem is if the patient is not responding to the second line or higher efficacy therapy, because we then have to switch within that line. And we do not know if he doesn't respond to anything we have. We do not know what to do. So we cannot switch or jump from one treatment to the other after six months of treatment, because you have to allow the treatment to have an effect. So at least six or nine months is okay. If the patient is not responding, then you can jump to other treatment. But hopefully the patient will respond to the third or fourth treatment, because it's not without limitations.

MSDF

Is combination therapy every indicated?

Dr. Havrdová

Not yet. I have thought many years ago that neurologists are just reluctant to use combination therapies, but now there were some trials, and it's not showing that effect. So it's not like in oncology. Though the principle is so clear, that you can combine drugs with various mechanisms of action decrease, some side effects, and increase the efficacy. Oncologists do that. We don't have drugs in the multiple sclerosis with this potential yet.

MSDF

Right. In hypertension they've just assumed they're always going to have two or three drugs, and same thing now with diabetes and things like that. But I guess this would be a big conceptual breakthrough for neurologists?

Dr. Havrdová

Yeah, and doesn't seem to be today's issue.

MSDF

What has been tried in combination?

Dr. Havrdová

The first combination which was tried was natalizumab and interferon. And it seems that it didn't work. And then, of course, it was also a small trial, natalizumab plus glatiramer acetate, and nothing just to safety was, of course, seen that. And some others, but nothing really.

MSDF

When there's an acute exacerbation, do you overlap steroids with the ongoing drug?

Dr. Havrdová

Yes, of course. Yes. It was proven that it's safe, and it's okay.

MSDF

So there is a combination, but short-term?

Dr. Havrdová

Yeah, it's a short-term combination. And definitely it helps because all the underlying immunomodulating drugs do not work against the acute relapse.

MSDF

What have we missed or is important to add on the topic?

Dr. Havrdová

I think that neurologists have to be aware, and of course, pharmacovigilent. You have to know the mechanism of action of the drug; you have to know the adverse events possible and how to prevent them—how to monitor the patient to be safe.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty-five of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eighty-four of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

People with MS take disease modifying therapies, or DMTs, for years. But is it possible to stop the drugs at some point or at least take a drug holiday? I spoke last fall at the ECTRIMS meeting in Barcelona with Dr. Ilya Kister, an assistant professor in the MS Care Center at the New York University School of Medicine. He has looked at various studies and registries that shed light on the question, and he discusses the utility and limitations of using observational data from big data sets.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

People know a lot about starting DMTs, but not about stopping. And, I take it, there's not much been looked at yet in terms of could you stop and what happens.

Interviewee – Ilya Kister

Yes, that’s a question that patients often ask, and clinicians certainly wonder about. Is it safe to stop the drug? When is it safe to stop it? And all the literature that I’ve seen on stopping the DMTs has basically analyzed the reasons for stopping them. The reasons for non-adherence—why did patient not want to continue—but there is very little data on actually what happened in terms of disease course. It’s just an observational study, you know. Do those patients continue to have relapses? Do they have more relapses or less? The only exception is natalizumab, where we have, you know, more than a dozen—probably two dozen—articles looking at what happens when you stop the drug. But that’s a little kind of almost an exceptional circumstance. There is a question of disease rebound and such. With the other drugs, very little to no data. So, so one wonders whether it’s an okay thing to do.

MSDF

What are the pros versus cons of stopping?

Dr. Kister

I think you can make almost equally appealing arguments on both sides. The arguments to continue the drugs, the main ones, are that relapses are unpredictable, and even though they’re less common as people age, we do see patients in practice, even in their 60s, who have relapses. And there was a recent study that showed that about 30% of secondary progressive MS patients have relapses. So, presumably, the drugs which work to decrease the risk of relapse would be helpful to reduce the risk of relapse even in those circumstances as well. But that’s not entirely clear, because they were never shown to be beneficial, truly, in the secondary progressive patients or in the older patients, because older patients are, by and large, excluded from all the studies. So we really don’t have any high-level data on these subpopulations.

So the reasons to continue would be to try to prevent relapses, even in older patients. And the reasons to stop would be that the relapses are kind of few and far between. It may be not worth the hassle, and maybe the disadvantages of continuing in DMT long-term outweigh the theoretical risk of decreasing relapse rates. So it’s in a clinical equipoise situation, as far as I am concerned.

MSDF

How have you looked at this issue?

Dr. Kister

This is just kind of our individual practice, and many people may agree or not agree with it. This is not really based on our studies, but generally speaking, patients after age 60 who haven’t had relapses or MRI activity for at least five years, I do have a discussion with them and kind of feel them out whether they’re interested in stopping or not. And the reactions vary widely. You know, some people are very attached to their drug. They feel like it’s helping them and protecting them and has done good for them, and they don’t even want to think about stopping. And some people are very tired from being treated for many years. They don’t necessarily see the advantages of it, and they’re very willing to consider stopping and take you up on the offer. They just need a blessing to do this, because the doctor says to stop. You know, there are people in between who are kind of vacillating and not sure. But this is a population that I would consider stopping the drug.

But now, about two weeks ago, we received the news that we have funding for study, wherein we’ll randomize patients. Some will continue on whatever drug they were on, and some will stop. And then this way we’ll actually collect, in a more rigorous fashion, the data of actually what happens to those patients. And that’s a study where the primary investigator is Dr. John Corboy from the University of Colorado in Denver. And there are six sites across the states that were approved for this, and where NYU is one of the six sites, and maybe a few more sites will be added. So this is our best hope, I think, to conduct, not a randomized clinical trial of starting a drug, but a randomized clinical trial of stopping a drug, which has been done in other fields, most important in oncology, a little bit in psychology, but not in neurology or in MS, as far as I know.

MSDF

But short of that, you've done a database study and looked at people who have stopped?

Dr. Kister

Yes, though that was a study that was just presented at this ECTRIMS meeting. And there we used a very large international registry called the MS Base, which has over 30,000 patients enrolled in it, so, and dozens of countries. And it's open to any investigator in the world who is interested, and he can contribute patient data. Obviously, it's patient consent, and many patients are interested in contributing their data to the registry.

So because the registry is so large, we were able to include for this study almost 500 patients who met our criteria, which were fairly rigorous. We required that patients be on some drug for three years; have no relapses for at least five years, because we want to exclude active patients; and be followed for at least three years. Three years is more than most clinical trials, which are one to two years. But we really wanted to see what happened to them this time. And we excluded people who went from one DMT to another within three months. So this was the crux of this study. We looked at this—485 patients to be exact—and we followed them. And the minimum was three years, but the median was almost five years.

And we found that in this population during this followup of almost five years, 36% of patients had at least one relapse. And 31% of patients had a confirmed disability progression, meaning three months apart they had a worsening of EDSS. And almost half of the patients have restarted a DMT, but not right after stopping, but two years or more after. That was the average time to restart. So that was the main kind of result. So when you talk to the patient, you try to kind of lay out the data for them, you know, this is the numbers you can use, I think. Even though somebody hasn't had relapses for five years or more, they still are at risk of relapses. And what we found was a predictor of relapses was age and EDSS. The younger patient and less disabled patients who we think are typically probably more in the relapsing phase, rather than in the secondary progressive phase, were more at risk for relapses. So for younger patients, I would be much more wary of stopping the drug, even if they have been relapse-free for years, than in an older patient. So that's one result of the study.

But there was a second component of this study which was interesting, I thought, wherein we compared the people who stopped the drug with the people who continued on the drug, and we matched them. There is a technique called propensity score matching. So we matched the people who stopped and the people who stayed. And the two groups were almost identical. All the parameters, like age, disability, how long they've been on the drugs, proportion of times they've been on the drug, their gender—very, very similar according to most of the variables. And we followed them through time, and the mean followup for both groups was about five years.

And we found, a little bit counterintuitively, that people who stopped the drugs did not have any more relapses than people who did not stop the drug. If you think that the drugs are protective, you will expect some effect; we didn't see any effect whatsoever. There was absolutely no effect.

But interestingly enough, the people who stayed on the drug tended to progress, to show confirmed disability progression, a little less. They were at less risk of disability progression, about 40% compared to people who stopped. So it's a little hard to interpret this data. It may be that the drugs actually have some cumulative effect and maybe continue, and that does delay disability progression. That would be a very favorable interpretation as far as clinicians are concerned and the rational to continue.

But it may be that people who stayed on the drug were really in some what we call unmeasured confounders. They had some reasons why they stayed, and they are not really entirely comparable to the people who stopped. Maybe they were a little more, for whatever reasons, considered to be more active by the clinician, and that's why they kept them on the drugs. So maybe there're intrinsically different groups with intrinsically different disability progression, and that is the reason for the finding.

So this is where we stand right now, and this goes to show kind of the utility and the limitations of using observational data sets. The utility is that we're able to basically run that kind of a pseudo-trial, if you will, comparing the stoppers and stayers, and run it for many years. We actually have data six, seven years after stopping the drug, which is almost not possible with randomized clinical trials. And we're able to use this data. In fact, to power the clinical trial that I talked about earlier, because we can predict how many people are expected to have relapses at this age and such. And the limitation that there are known unmeasured confounders, and that there're biases in who continues to be observed and who is not, and we cannot control for that without randomization.

MSDF

Now, from your study, it looked like people who had been off of a DMT for more than two years had a higher relapse rate. Is there any possibility of having a drug holiday? Or, when someone comes off drug, a silent insult happens that you only see later, so you really have to not give them a holiday?

Dr. Kister

Well, it's a hard question to answer. They had a higher risk of disability progression, not relapses in this study. The curves begin to diverge after about two years. It was more of a long-term effect. So, you know, one wonders. But the counter argument to what you are describing is maybe there's a cumulative effect, that you really have to stay on the drug for long periods of time in order to see. And if you stop and have a holiday, you kind of wash out that possibility. So the answer is, we really don't know whether it's okay or not to give holidays. It's definitely not okay in actively relapsing patients, especially if they're on strong drugs like natalizumab or even Gilenya or even interferon. That's pretty clear. So but as far as the patients who hadn't had relapses for a long period of time, we don't know. It remains to be seen.

MSDF

Is there a continuing effect of any drugs, such as monoclonals, like alemtuzumab, where you might get a tail effect even after stopping it, which would essentially be your accumulative effect?

Dr. Kister

I think that is, you know, a very important point that we talked about stopping the drugs, but we really have to specify which drug we're stopping. Because drugs like alemtuzumab have been shown to have an effect that lasts for four years or more. And I think at this conference they will show data for even longer term effect of alemtuzumab. I've seen some posters to that effect. So those drugs have an effect on the immune system that persists. Some chemo treatments as well, you know, a stem-cell transfer. It's not something you do every year; it's something you've done once, and you see the effect that lasts for a long period of time. So I think a lot depends on the mechanisms of the drug, you know, how long they're expected to affect the immune system for. Something like natalizumab that washes out within three months or so, and you don't really see, you know, effect on the receptor level than you'll be after about three or four months. We don't really…you wouldn't expect it to work beyond that time, and it really doesn't. It only lasts that long. And other drugs, there is a sustained loss of T cells and B cells for a long period of time, and perhaps that's why there's a clinical effect that lasts for many years.

MSDF

Have we missed anything? Or is there anything important or interesting to add on the topic?

Dr. Kister

I think your interest was in observational data sets, and I think MS Base registry and others, like NARCOMS registry, they show the power of, kind of all of the people power. It's not the big pharma who is collecting the data, which is very important and has a big role, obviously. It's actual clinicians and actual patients who volunteer their data. And I think patients should be gratified to see that their data is used to actually come up with some insight as to advantage them, come back to the patients and answer some of the questions they had. So I think those databases are very important.

MSDF

I appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Kister

Thank you very much.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty-four of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eighty-three of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

For years, MS researchers have been looking for a measure of MS progression and disability that would be meaningful to clinicians, clinical researchers, patients, and the regulatory agencies that approve new drugs, such as the Food and Drug Administration. To this end, people have looked to composite endpoints that are sensitive to small changes in patient condition and comparable across studies. At the ECTRIMS conference last fall in Barcelona, I met with Dr. Jerry Wolinsky, professor of neurology and director of the MS Research Group at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston, who leads us along the path to develop a useful measure incorporating composite endpoints.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

In terms of assessing progression and disability in MS, is there some advantage to having composite endpoints as opposed to the standard tests we’ve looked at?

Interviewee – Jerry Wolinsky

There are several different ways to think about composite endpoints. So one of the things that was introduced almost several decades ago was MSFC functional composite. So this was using three different ways of looking at different components of disability in patients with MS. One was a test of cognition. One was a test of fine motor skills in the upper extremities. And one was a test of walking abilities/walking speed. That particular composite looked very attractive. There was a fair amount of theoretical and practical work behind instituting the composite, and it was used in a number of trials. And it was based on some very important, I think, kind of statistical analysis.

So what it allowed one to do was to take patients either in a given study or across studies and try to normalize the data that you would get from those patients into something called a z-score, which is a way of ranking and evaluating how far across the group of patients people were scattered. And then one could conceptually add up the z-scores and have a composite number, and a single number that you could use to analyze trial data. It seemed to be rather sensitive, and it seemed to work well. But the z-score is very dimensionless, and it makes little sense to the practicing clinician, or certainly to patients, to know that you’re minus-two or minus-five or plus-two, and that maybe this has moved by two-hundredths of a point from the time you started in the study until you got to the end of the study.

So, highly sensitive, seemed very reproducible, maybe even a way to look across studies at different results, but neither patients or physicians and, most importantly, the FDA thought that this would be useful in day-to-day practice. So, while we’ve tested that kind of approach in multiple studies, it just hasn’t worked. But it did set up the notion that we could get a little bit more quantitative in things that could be useful on a daily basis, even using some of the same components of that MSFC.

So instead of thinking about how fast could one person walk compared to another, we said, how fast can a person walk using a timed walk of a fixed distance and at one point in time? And then say how much change over an interval of time would represent something that was likely to be reproducible and, more importantly, likely to be correlated with some measure of quality of life that also was deteriorating?

So then we got to the notion–and this was really best utilized thus far in the trials of 4-aminopyridine in terms of registration studies there–to say could you show a 20% improvement or more in this timed walk over an interval of time? And in that study, a certain number of patients were able to show it, and there was also some correlative data done to show that that amount of improvement correlated with things which were meaningful to the individual. And so I think that helped facilitate getting that drug through the registration process with the FDA.

One of the things that my colleagues and I did in looking at one of the trials in progressive disease, specifically the trial of rituximab in primary progressive MS, where we had the data that goes into the MSFC, because it had been collected in the study, was to try to develop a number of different composites. And actually, when you think about it, the main score that we use to rate studies is the EDSS score, and it itself is a composite. It takes into account graded changes in fine motor skills in what we would call the cerebellar system, in the pyramidal system, in the sensory systems, and cognitive systems. It’s just that the boundaries in moving in these individual functional scales are a little bit more subjective in terms of going from a zero to a one, two, or three. And then the scale itself is rather complicated in terms of how it put together to come to the final score, the extended disability status score. But it’s very well accepted by neurologists, and it’s accepted by the regulatory authorities as the standard.

So we took our standard changes on EDSS, which in this particular study had not shown efficacy across the group as a whole. So we looked at that in the placebo arm, and didn’t contaminate that with the treated arm, to say what was the rate of change on the EDSS alone? But then we also said, what about a 20% change over baseline that had occurred in an individual patient over intervals of testing and not just one that occurred at a particular setting compared to baseline, but one that continued to be seen at the next 3 months and the next 3 months. So it looked like it was a sustained change in the same way that we use EDSS now in trials to talk about sustained or accumulated permanent disability, at least over some interval of time.

So we said, okay, we can construct a progression curve based on that. And then we said, what does that look like? And said, well, this has some dimensions to it that are interesting. And we did the same thing with the Timed 25-Foot Walk, and we didn’t fool around with the PASAT [Paced Auditory Serial Addition Test] the cognitive measure because nobody likes it. Patients don’t appreciate it, and it’s a rather prolonged and not a simple test to use. And this is one that probably could be easily changed out with other cognitive tests that are probably as reliable and easier to complete. And we looked at how did patients progress using that change in the timed walk and said, well, that’s interesting too.

And then we went into the group as a whole and said, okay, how many patients changed on the EDSS over three months, confirmed? How many over six months, confirmed? How many did this on the Timed 25-Foot Walk? Did it cross the 20% threshold? How many did this on the 9-Hole Peg Test and, again, crossing the 20% threshold? And who were these patients, more importantly? So then we could develop series of Venn diagrams–if you will, circles–that showed who did it on just one test, who did it on all tests, who did it on two tests? And looked to see could we get a larger and larger proportion of the population that were showing progression?

And the answer is: We could. And for some tests, the incremental change was small, and for other tests the incremental change was relatively large. But when we looked at the results of the study, then, using different kinds of composites, you fail just on EDSS; you fail on EDSS, or you fail on Timed 25-Foot Walk; you fail on Timed 25-Foot Walk or 9-Hole Peg Test—we don’t care about EDSS in that one—you fail on all three. We could see that we could increase the sensitivity, that is, the number of people who were showing progression, using these kinds of composites, and hoped, therefore, that we could increase the sensitivity to drug effect.

So then we did the next step, which was to take both the placebo arm and the treated arms and say, okay, how did the curves change? So the overall curve showed no statistical benefit with the EDSS, until you went to subgroup analysis. And that was reported in the original paper. But when we modeled this, of course, the overall didn’t show the statistical effect. That’s where we were starting from. When we added in the Timed 25-Foot Walk, it looked like there was a better split. In fact, the effect size for the treatment improved. And this was not across subgroups, but across the entire population.

Interestingly enough, we probably got the biggest punch by throwing out the EDSS and just using the 9-Hole Peg Test and the Timed 25-Foot Walk. That has some advantages, because they can be done by anyone. In fact, they probably could be done remotely, or we probably could convert it to how many steps a day did you take and have your watch feed the message to us over the course of a day. There are a number of interesting different approaches that can be taken to this kind of concept, and some of these are being pursued by a collaborative group spearheaded through the NIH, as well as a private consortium, looking at newer ways to measure progression.

The good news is, I’m sure we’ll find things that are more sensitive. The good news is, I’m sure we’ll find things that are easier to apply. Another part of the good news is that the additional work increasingly is carried out with some representatives from the regulatory authorities to give us a feeling for what they really want to see. And what they would like to see is not just that we have composites that are sensitive and reproducible, but each of those composites that, before using them, has been shown to have some relevance for what patients complain of and what patients are looking for. So that’s the good news.

The bad news is we have to not only develop them, validate them, show that they work, we’ll probably have to constantly be comparing them back, in our future trials, to the standard, until we get our first drug that really works in these new, validated approaches that are being taken.

MSDF

Do you think that different drugs will show you different effects on different parameters within the composite score, or do things pretty much move in synchrony?

Dr. Wolinsky

You know, because multiple sclerosis is such a heterogeneous disease—heterogeneous in many ways, but the simplest one to think about is the lesions don’t exactly form in a way that suits us as trialists. So, many of the lesions are silent for whatever it is we’re trying to test, no matter how carefully we test for them except maybe with really high resolution MRI. So it depends where in the real estate the lesion has hit. So it’s easy to imagine that a relatively small lesion in the cerebellum particularly well-situated could cause some slowing of the ability to do the 9-Hole Peg Test, and yet it might take a very large lesion in the frontal lobe to do the same effect in that system.

In the same way, it may take just a small lesion in a pyramidal pathway, either in the spinal cord or in the internal capsule, to cause a significant change in the 25-Foot Walk and do nothing in the 9-Hole Peg Test. So, conceptually, we want to be able separately test—or relatively separately; the brain is fairly interconnected—separately test as many systems as we can and build upon them. Usually with these composites, you don’t lose too much by adding composites, as long as they’re truly independent of each other. As they become more interdependent, then the more you add, you may lose some of your ability to find small changes statistically. They’ll cancel out.

MSDF

Even though these are composites, you’re still interested in the separate parameters? I mean, it looks like one parameter could offset another, and your composite score could be neutral, even though you have larger changes in the separate parameters.

Dr. Wolinsky

What you’re trying to do, if you’re setting up your composites correctly, is not to have them cancel. And with the z-score we talked about before, it can cancel. With a composite, where you’re expecting each of the scales to be moving in a particular ordinal fashion that is going from better to worse, you don’t care where the worst comes from, if you’re saying we’ll take worse in any system. Where it gets tricky is, once you get good at that, then you might want to say, well, you get two points for getting worse in the walking system, because that’s more correlated with whether or not someone’s employable than it is if it’s in, let’s say, bladder measures, which we don’t have quantitatively—well, we do, but they’re just harder to apply—or perhaps on using other visual pathway measures that have yet to be introduced into the composites very well.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty-three of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eight-two of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

Depression affects as many as 50 percent of people with MS during their lifetimes. But according to Dr. Adam Kaplin, a psychiatrist in the Johns Hopkins MS Center in Baltimore, it is treatable to a large extent, and with good results. Dr. Kaplin studies the immune basis of depression and cognitive impairment, specifically in MS and central nervous system-related autoimmune diseases. We met in Baltimore.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

Let’s talk about depression in multiple sclerosis. Is it a reaction to someone having a chronic disease, or is there something more going on because of the disease?

Interviewee – Adam Kaplin

It’s a great question, and what I will tell you is one of my patients says to me that you’re either stressed, or you’re dead. We all have stress going on, and it’s always possible to look at something in our life and say, ah, that’s what caused the trouble. But we know now, in multiple sclerosis, the depression is due primarily and dramatically significantly to the inflammation going on in the brain that causes all of the symptoms that you see in MS, such as cognitive impairment, or weakness/numbness/tingling, autonomic nervous system dysfunction; all of those are effects of the MS on the CNS.

And in the case of depression, it is similar. It’s not a character flaw. It’s not a personal weakness. And just to, you know, clarify, one of the best pieces of evidence we have for that is, number 1, that people who are depressed with MS, it does not correlate with their EDSS scores. It doesn’t correlate with their level of disabilities. So if it was you know, gee, it’s just a matter of stress, then those people who are in wheel chairs or on ventilators should be depressed, and those people who are upright and walking around shouldn’t. But in fact, I think the key element is that this is one of the, as they often say, silent symptoms of MS. It occurs to 50% of patients across their lifetime. And it is important you know for people to understand that this is not something that people aren’t rising to the occasion, or those kinds of things.

MSDF

Is depression accompanying MS more prevalent than in the general population, and how serious is it?

Dr. Kaplin

You know people often ask why, as a neuropsychiatrist, why study MS? And I say, you know, why did Willie Sutton rob banks? That’s where the money is. MS has the highest rate of clinical depression of any medical neurological or surgical disease. Again, 50% of people, following the diagnosis of MS, will have a clinical depression. We can talk about what that is. And it turns out that that’s in any clinic you go into – neurology clinic – that’s one in four patients. If you go out to the waiting room, one in four patients will be suffering from a clinical depression.

MSDF

How serious a problem is it? What aspects of life does it affect? Does it affect everything, and how serious is it?

Dr. Kaplin

I think what is often misunderstood about the depression in MS is, I would argue, that it has the highest morbidity and mortality of any of the symptoms of MS, in the sense that it is the third leading cause of death in the largest study that looked at, across the lifespan, what causes death in people with MS, [found] a study out of Canada, where it’s more prevalent because of the higher elevation and the lower vitamin D levels, probably. And it is absolutely the case that seven-and-a-half times the rate – the suicide rate in MS – to the general population. And in fact, in the studies that were done, 30% of people with multiple sclerosis will have thoughts of suicide at some point during their life. Ten percent – fully 10% will attempt suicide. And that lethality is profound.

But if it doesn’t kill you, it is important to understand that it has significant, significant morbidity associated with it. Just to begin with, the number one correlate of quality of life of patients—more important than their pain, or more important than their cognitive impairment, or weakness, or other symptoms—the number one correlate of the quality of life of the patient is their depression or whether they are depressed or not. And it’s similarly the number one quality of life of the care givers—not whether they have to push them around in a wheelchair, it is whether their loved one is suffering from a clinical depression. So it has significant morbidity and mortality associated with it.

MSDF

Are there aspects of serious depression in MS that are very characteristic? Any different from other severe depression? Or can it be recognized in the same way with the same diagnostic criteria?

Dr. Kaplin

There actually are some specifics to MS, although that hasn’t been well-published. I can be clear about things that are well-supported by the literature, and then those that are my clinical experiences. What I can tell you is that the way we diagnose depression in MS is the same way we diagnose depression in people without MS, which is you have to have 5 of 9 symptoms greater than two weeks, one of which must be either decreased mood or decreased interest. And we remember it by SIG-EM-CAPS, the nine symptoms. Trouble with sleep, where people are often having early morning awakenings or hypersomnia where they just sleep all day. Loss of interest, people’s get up and go has gotten up and gone. Feelings of guilt or worthlessness – and that’s a big problem, because patients who are depressed as a result of that often won’t seek help. You have to ask about it. They won’t volunteer it. And loss of energy or fatigue; low mood – that’s the sadness part; concentration problem; appetite changes, either increased or decreased weight; and psychomotor retardation, they’re not their normal bubbly self; and thoughts of death or suicide.

With MS, what I will tell you, I find that patients with MS often, rather than sadness, have very frequently irritability. That tends to be more common. And sleep is usually decreased, not increased, so I see very frequently increased early morning awakening and those kinds of things. One pearl, though, to keep in mind is – or two pearls – if you’re trying to make the diagnosis of depression in somebody with MS, the first thing to do, because there are overlapped symptoms like fatigue, like concentration problems between depression and MS, so there is frequently, in up to 80% of people, will have diurnal variations in their moods; so usually worst in the morning and better at night. Sometimes it’s reversed, but you know that person has the same life circumstance, the same disease circumstance in the evening that they did in the morning, but their mood has changed dramatically, often, with MS with these cyclical changes. And that’s a good indication that it’s not demoralization; it’s depression.

The other thing is ask the loved one. Get an outside informant, because nobody gets the brunt of it quite like the family. And they know that person, and if the family member says the one thing I hear so often, this is not the person I married, then you’re pretty much on the right track if you’re thinking about depression.

MSDF

How amenable to treatment is depression in MS?

Dr. Kaplin

I think that that is probably one of the key aspects is to understand that it is very treatable. So my expectation when patients come to me and I diagnose them with depression is that I will get them a hundred percent well with respect to those SIG-EM-CAPS symptoms, back to their baseline. And it’s very hard to get patients a hundred percent well from their gait problems; a hundred percent well from their cognitive problems. And, again, what I tell people is, look, I can’t tell you whether your cognitive impairment is due to the depression or due to the MS, or maybe it’s 10% depression/90% MS or 90% depression/10% MS. But I can promise you this: treating the depression, the depression is much more amenable to treatment. We don’t have good treatments for cognitive impairment in MS to reverse the cognitive impairment, but boy, we can reverse it if it’s a symptom of depression. What’s really exciting now is that we are now understanding more and more that many of the treatments you use for depression end up being good nerve tonics.

So, there was a double-blind placebo-controlled study of fluoxetine demonstrating that, in patients who weren’t depressed with MS, they had fewer gadolinium-enhancing lesions over 24 weeks. And then there was the FLAME study in a related kind of way looking at fluoxetine as a way of significantly enhancing the recovery of hemiplegic stroke patients. So it turns out that I wasn’t so misguided in thinking that studying the immune basis of depression would be important, because as it turns out, our treatments actually do have an effect on the nervous system and the immune system for general types of depression as well.

MSDF

That sort of covers the SSRI class. What about tricyclic antidepressants? What about SNRIs? Do those fit in?

Dr. Kaplin

Yes, so absolutely. So the topic of how to choose and select the right treatment for patients with MS is … we could spend an hour and just sort of get only the highlights done there. But generally there’re sort of two strategies. One is to use a medication that has the fewest side effects, so that you won’t have drug-drug interactions with the patient if they’re on a numerous medicines for other concerns—their other symptoms and syndromes—that the antidepressant won’t interfere with it. And so along those lines, escitalopram and sertraline have the fewest drug-drug interactions. You essentially don’t need to look up drug-drug interactions if your patient is on one of those two medicines.

The other approach is to say let’s choose a medicine that will have favorability with respect to the side effects, will be beneficial for the problems that the patient has. So a classic example is duloxetine is FDA-approved, not just for depression, not just for anxiety, but also for neuropathic and musculoskeletal pain. So here you’re talking about one treatment that will help you with the fact that your patient, their depression will get better; their neuropathic pain will get better if they have migraines—which are often a comorbidity—that will also benefit the neuropathic pain from that as well. And you know you will get two birds with one stone, as it were.

And then the tricyclics, as you had asked about, we’ve had a lot of experience with them. They also will benefit in terms of the urinary incontinence problem. They are strongly anticholinergic, and so you can also benefit in terms of preventing the urinary/bowel problems. So really Cymbalta as just sort of son-of-tricyclics, has some fewer side effects, but doesn’t, therefore, cover some of the things that the tricyclics will.

MSDF

As you alluded to earlier, the depression in MS may largely be a result of immune processes going on—inflammation, cytokines, things like that. So how well do the disease-modifying therapies of MS attack the depression?

Dr. Kaplin

You know you mentioned cytokines. So that is another way that we know that this is due to the inflammation—the depression in MS—and not just other things, because for instance, interferon-alpha used to treat patients with hepatitis C will cause depression in upwards of 20 to 25% of people who take it, not when they first start it, but within you know a week to two weeks after starting it, you know, then up to eight weeks. So that’s just one cytokine, and in MS, all of the cytokines get activated. And similarly, interferon-beta that’s used, or Copaxone, you know, the ABCR drugs that we’ve used to try to—you know, with great effect since 1993—to slow the exacerbations down in MS; they don’t stop the inflammation, they just alter it. And so not surprisingly, they do not have antidepressant properties.

But when you look at something like Tysabri, we actually have not published this yet. We did present it at a MS conference but working in collaboration with Biogen. We are going to publish shortly data that shows that, in a double-blind placebo-controlled study of adding natalizumab to Avonex, or adding placebo to Avonex, those patients who were depressed to begin with show a dramatic and statistically significantly decrease in their depression as a result of the natalizumab. So natalizumab is actually quite a good antidepressant—we have data for it—because that really does shut the inflammation down in the brain, and since that’s causing the depression in MS, that’s what benefits them.

MSDF

Just to clarify, natalizumab is a good antidepressant in MS.

Dr. Kaplin

Exactly right. That’s exactly right. Although, you know, it’s good that you clarified that. What’s interesting is that now that people are beginning to appreciate the role of the immune system in idiopathic depression, people are beginning to say, hmm, maybe we should be looking at these anti-inflammatories and seeing if the anti-inflammatories benefit patients with depression. Now, nobody has tried natalizumab, but TNF-alpha inhibitors have actually been tried. There was a study out of Emory looking at using TNF-alpha inhibitors for refractory depression. And I think coming down the road there will be more and more studies that begin to show the role of anti-inflammatories for not all, but some people with refractory depression.

MSDF

Yes, I’ve seen some studies on anti-inflammatories—traditional ones, NSAIDS sort of things—presented a German study at a neurology conference. Didn’t do too much.

Dr. Kaplin

Yes. What I can tell you is that not all NSAIDs are created equal. Celecoxib actually now has five studies that are placebo-controlled that have shown its benefit for depression or bipolar disorder. And so when added to antidepressant by itself: No. But when added to fluoxetine or—I can’t remember what other; it might have been sertraline—it clearly had a statistically significant improvement in the depression response, celecoxib. But not all NSAIDs are created the same.

MSDF

What about non-drug therapies, cognitive behavioral therapy, even just physical activity? And, if someone’s depressed, isn’t it hard to get them up and do physical activity?

Dr. Kaplin

Well, I’m so glad brought that up, because I’d be remiss to forget that. So all of the data says, look, therapies like cognitive behavioral therapy are effective for mild and moderate depression. Antidepressants are effective as well. The data shows that the antidepressants work quicker, but that the combination of antidepressants and psychotherapy is much better than either one alone. So that’s a crucial issue. And to make sense of what has happened—and often when people are depressed, they’ve been depressed, and that’s caused damage to their professional life and personal life, and having someone help them sort of, depending how long the depression’s been going on, sort of talk them through, coach them through, how to get back up and going.

However, in severe depression, you can talk till the cows come home. If your patient is so depressed that basically they have this tunnel vision, and all of the options that are in front of them, the kind of mental flexibility that you need for CBT to work, for instance, it will not work if you patient is really severely depressed. You have to get them started with the antidepressant, which really then serves as a catalyst for the psychotherapy to kick in. And then the aspect of exercise, you can’t really pick a topic related to MS where the answer isn’t exercise. Cognitive impairment, absolutely exercise is beneficial.

Depression, exercise is beneficial. It stimulates growth hormones that have positive neurological effects on the CNS, as well as on the peripheral nervous system and body.

What I tell people, again, is that if your patient is severely depressed, they’re not going just go back out and start running. So you’ve got to begin to have a plan where you say, look, we’re going to begin this medicine. As you start to be able to have the ability to you know maybe push yourself more than you might usually and just sort of walk down the block, and then you know walk for a mile and then start jogging for a mile and sort of build up to it, that’s very beneficial.

MSDF

Are there barriers to recognizing and/or treating depression both on the patient’s side and on the physician’s side?

Dr. Kaplin

The big barrier on the physician’s side is, you know, don’t ask, don’t tell. So if you don’t think of depression, or worse, if the neurologist says, well, I went into neurology not psychiatry, you know, this whole depression thing, that’s not my bailiwick, that’s not my responsibility, you’re missing the fact that this is —first of all, this is very rewarding. There’s nothing else that you could treat that gets a patient from being non-functional, sitting at home, not taking care of the family, not working, in a bed to fully functional, taking care of the family, back at work, like treating the depression can. But also it is. It affects all aspects. It affects the patient’s compliance with all your other medicines. It affects their ability to exercise, etc., etc. So, you know, you’ve got to think of it.

And then you have to know something about treating it. One of the big problems with neurologists when they treat depression is that they don’t appreciate the fact that the goal is to get that patient a hundred percent well, because you sort of have this sigma curve where, if you get them 50% well, they’re still in that sort of steep portion of the curve where something comes along—an MS attack or you even a viral infection—and they will slip right down that curve. Whereas, if you can push them way out into the hundred percent well, that’s great. Now you can’t always do it with one medicine. You take the dose as high as the patient can tolerate, where the side effects don’t become worse than the depression you’re trying to treat. But then you might need to add another medicine, an augmenting agent or something, so you’ve got to make sure you recognize it and treat it.

And then, what I always tell my colleagues—and my colleagues at Hopkins are wonderful; they do appreciate you know you’re treating the whole patient, not just you know their reflex arcs and that kind of stuff—and what they are very good at is, if the patient is depressed and suicidal, that is the psychiatric equivalent of a heart attack. So then they will get in touch with me and we’ll work together. So if you’ve got someone who’s suicidal, you really want to get in touch. Unless you have the utmost experience and confidence in treating the worst cases of depression, you probably want to get a psychiatrist involved, or mental health professional involved, to help coordinate the care for someone like them.

MSDF

Very good! I appreciate it.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty-two of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eighty-one of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

The science of pharmacogenomics can help identify those genetic variants that are associated with a high or low risk for experiencing an adverse drug reaction or a beneficial therapeutic response. While at the ECTRIMS conference in Barcelona last fall, I spoke with Kaarina Kowalec, a postdoctoral fellow in the Pharmacoepidemiology in MS research group at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. We discussed the potential for using pharmacogenomics to optimize the risk/benefit profile in a patient's favor, focusing first on the risk of liver injury with interferon-beta.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

How are you using pharmacogenomics to assess the risk for interferon-beta-induced liver injury?

Interviewee – Kaarina Kowalec

Yes, essentially we have two groups of patients. We have ones that have had the drug reaction and then the other ones that have been exposed to the same drug, but do not have the drug reaction. And so we take a saliva sample from all of them, and then we’re basically looking for genetic markers that would either increase or decrease the risk of having the drug reaction. And so by recruiting all these patients, we can use their saliva or their DNA to study whether or not they have some kind of genetic variant or genetic marker that would protect them from having the drug reaction.

MSDF

Are you doing genome-wide association studies or looking for specific markers?

Dr. Kowalec

Yes, we’re doing two-fold actually. So the first one is a candidate gene study. So this is looking at a more targeted approach to looking for genes that, based on previous literature, would be likely to be involved in the mechanism of predisposing to liver injury from interferon. So either this is related to interferon the way that it’s degraded in the body, the response towards interferon is regulated, or it can be related to the liver toxicity side. So there’s a lot of other studies that have been done looking at the genetic basis of liver toxicity from, say, flucloxacillin, amoxicillin clavulanates, a few other thrombin inhibitors, and some other cancer therapies. And so from that information we can look at those genes in our cohort. So that’s sort of the targeted approach.

And then secondly, we’re doing more of a hypothesis-free type of approach, which is a general genome-wide association study. So this is where you look at every gene in the human genome, so over 20,000 genes. In each gene, you would look at, say, a few different markers within each gene. So we have a total of 1.7 million different markers that we’re looking at to see if they modify the risk of experiencing liver toxicity.

MSDF

Are you also doing the basic investigation, essentially heat maps, to see what genes are induced or suppressed when interferon is given?

Dr. Kowalec

No, so that would be, I guess, more microarray or gene expression. I think that would be sort of the next stage. If we could isolate one gene that would be involved, then we could I think then look at the expression of the gene, because, of course, that would be also important to see if interferon has any direct effect on turning on or turning off or reducing or increasing the level of a certain gene. But that would be probably for the next project, I think.

MSDF

Are you trying to develop a risk assessment model?

Dr. Kowalec

Yes, so essentially kind of like a test. So it would be once a new patient would come into clinic and, say, they were going to start one of the interferons, we could take their clinical and demographic information, like whether or not they were female, whether or not they were within a certain age group, whether or not they drinked, whether or not they took different concomitant medications; and then, as well, take a spit sample from them. And then, hopefully, within a few hours or a day or so we could tell them whether or not they would fit into a low risk or a high risk of having the drug reactions. So then the clinical decision by the neurologist or the nurses could then decide what medications they should go on. Of course, if they were in the low risk category, put them on that drug. And then if they were in the high risk, then maybe suggest something else, or still go on the medication and maybe just have more blood work done to monitor them a little more closely.

MSDF

Where does this stand? Developing a model is a long process. Has it started yet?

Dr. Kowalec

We’re in the discovery phase, so I’m going to be presenting the discovery phase where we’re initially trying to find the markers. And so we’ll finish this up within the next few months, and then the validation phase, which is basically where we would want to replicate these findings in an independent international cohort. So we have another cohort of patients that are from the US, as from Europe. That will probably take about a year or so. And then from there you could maybe implement it into the clinic, but likely the goal with looking at interferon-induced liver injury might be that we would use this information to study drug reaction with the newer medications. Because the new oral medications come into being used more, interferon might be used less, and so this just might provide some pilot work, I guess, for some of the newer oral medications.

MSDF

Will all this focus always on liver, or are there other toxicities that you would look at?

Dr. Kowalec

There’s definitely quite a few areas that I would want to look at. One, of course, is probably in the mind of most clinicians and patients as well would be PML or progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy with natalizumab and then also with some of the newer medications as well. That would be probably the one, you know, stands out in most people’s mind that would be the likely area to study to see if we can reduce the incidence of that type of more severe drug reaction for sure. Some of the new medications definitely suppress the levels of white blood cells quite a bit, but that still kind of also ties in with PML. Mitoxantrone is not used quite as much, but it’s got a limited amount of use, because it’s associated with not only leukemia but also with inducing heart toxicity. That’s another area that would be frightening, obviously, for a lot of people. But I think those would be sort of how you could kind of round out what areas would be next likely drug reactions that would be needed to be studied.

MSDF

Do these kinds of investigations require networks of collaborating centers or databases?

Dr. Kowalec

One center definitely can’t do it all. In order to get the number of cases that you need of the drug reaction, you probably get maybe 5 to 10 per center, and so you probably need somewhere in the range of 60 to 100. And so what we did was, because of the really strong network that we have in Canada of the Canadian MS Clinics, we use that, as well as we capitalized on another drug reaction surveillance network called the Canadian Pharmacogenomics Network for Drug Safety. Using those two different networks, we were able to recruit enough patients to form our discovery cohort. And then for the replication cohort, we used some of our connections in the US and then abroad. But definitely it’s a multicenter type of study, for sure.

MSDF

Can these sorts of models be used also for predicting who will respond best to a drug, not only worst? Some drugs are taken from the market, because you get adverse reactions, but they work for some people who don’t have adverse reactions, and that’s a loss.

Dr. Kowalec

Yes, it’s definitely unfortunate, and even in the case of natalizumab, where it was taken off market because of PML, there were obviously patients who were so passionate about having this drug available to them that they were able to get that decision reversed and just released on a more stringent, I guess, criteria. I’ve never heard of a drug being put back on the market because of pharmacogenetic findings or because someone was able to find a marker that would prevent people from having a drug reaction. I think that, for example, the FDA or Health Canada or any of the European agencies I don’t believe that they would feel comfortable enough with letting a drug back out there knowing that, even if they found some kind of genetic marker.

Two drugs, ximelagatran (7:17) and one other cancer therapy, they were taken off the market because of liver toxicity concerns. And what’s interesting is that it was about a similar incidence as what interferon-beta-induced liver injury was. But, of course, with MS there wasn’t many medications, so that’s probably why interferon was probably allowed to stay on the market. But those drugs were taken off the market, and then they found some genetic markers, but they weren’t quite as strong, I guess, as they were hoping. And so it was not going to work as a predictive risk model or as a predictive genetic test, so they weren’t going to be allowed back on the market.

But I think the ideal time to look at these types of genetic markers would be probably in some of the final stages of, say, clinical trial testing. And maybe pharmaceutical companies might be doing this, I’m not sure, but to look at these types of genetic markers in those stages would be really beneficial, because if you see them as they’re developing them, you could offer them as kind of like a companion diagnostic type of test, so whenever they would release the drug. Usually these drug reactions don’t actually occur until you’ve treated probably ten to fifteen thousand people, so that’s the other difficulty. So maybe another stage would be to just do sort of like an active surveillance to sort of recruit patients as they’re on the drug and just monitor all of them. But, of course, that takes a lot of money and takes a lot of time, so you need the funding for that type of study.

MSDF

This would be like a Phase 4 post-marketing study.

Dr. Kowalec

Yes, exactly. And they do that, right. They do a lot of active surveillance for drug reactions whenever a new drug comes onto market. But to actually develop some kind of predictive biomarker test at the same time, is not really done pretty readily, at least to my knowledge. So it would be great, because if you see how much money goes into developing every drug, you know, and if we want to keep it on the market, then maybe that’s what you have to do.

MSDF

People are developing in vitro liver assays. I guess that’s an early stage sort of thing before they go through a whole development process.

Dr. Kowalec

Yes, exactly. And that will definitely help as our technology certainly gets a lot better in the future, and we can study the liver much more readily, especially in people with MS. Just studying MS as a disease on its own is really difficult, and so studying the liver is very low down the list. And so we don’t even know really if MS affects the liver on its own, so that could be another entire study.

MSDF

Anything important to add?

Dr. Kowalec

You know, I really hope that we eventually get to a day where patients can take a drug that’s really effective. We’re definitely getting there. We’re definitely getting drugs that are more effective, but at the caveat that they definitely are more toxic. That’s definitely unfortunate, because the patients are scared, right? These side effects are fatal sometimes and are really very worrisome.

And I can give one anecdotal experience that I had with a patient that experienced liver injury from interferon. And I’ve certainly had a lot of people that didn’t really believe that this drug reaction was all that important sometimes to study. And I met this one patient that experienced it, and she said, you know, I’m not really worried about this drug reaction itself. It’s just I don’t know what has happened to my liver. I know this one instance is over, but now for the rest of my life, I’m scared of every drink that I have or every time I want to take an acetaminophen pill for a headache or a fever or whatnot. If they don’t have to worry about one additional thing, you know, they’re already worried about how MS is going to affect their life. If we can maybe eliminate something like this, it’ll help some patients.

MSDF

Very good, thank you.

Dr. Kowalec

Thank you.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty-one of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

Full transcript:

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Eighty of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

Interferon beta is a well-known and long used treatment for relapsing-remitting MS, but it's not without potential problems for some patients. While at the ECTRIMS conference in Barcelona last fall, I spoke with Kaarina Kowalec, a post-doctoral fellow in the Division of Neurology at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. We discussed interferon beta and other drugs and their potential for liver toxicity.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

In terms of liver toxicity of interferon beta, what's the problem?

Interviewee – Kaarina Kowalec

I would say that about 1 in 50 patients that are exposed to this drug will experience a side effect known as drug-induced liver injury, or liver toxicity, essentially; it's an abnormality in their blood work. Most times it'll just go back down to normal and everything is fine, but in the rare occurrence sometimes it can lead to more severe outcomes such as needing a liver transplant, sometimes even liver failure, and sometimes even death. That's definitely a very rare scenario, but it certainly is an issue, and it's definitely a worry for some patients and definitely for clinicians, as well.

MSDF

Also, it's not only interferon, a lot of drugs have liver effects. Is that right, new drugs especially?

Dr. Kowalec

It's the number one reason that drugs are taken off the market, and it's usually one of the top concerns for any new drug that's entering into the market. Obviously, the liver has many different functions, but one being that it detoxify foreign components like drugs like interferon, like alcohol, food, many different things. So it definitely plays a major role, that's why it's usually effected so much.

MSDF

What are some of the factors that affect both efficacy and toxicity of drugs in general?

Dr. Kowalec

You know, if you see it kind of a pie chart, the genetic component can be pretty variable. So from person to person, it could be anywhere from a few percent to up to 50 to 60%. But the rest of that pie, I guess, is made up of variation in how much of an enzyme we make that needs to detoxify the drug, as well as our age, our BMI—how much we weigh—how tall we are, whether or not we're male or female. There's a variety of different demographic-type factors that come into play, as well. It's definitely very difficult to predict who will have a safe and effective response to a drug.

MSDF

Does polypharmacy play a role, especially you had mentioned enzymes; things that induce or suppress enzymes?

Dr. Kowalec

Yeah, definitely. So in the case of an interferon, there's some evidence to suggest that interferon might suppress some of the cytochrome, or drug-metabolizing enzymes. And in that case if they were taking any additional medications, such as like Tylenol (acetaminophen) or ibuprofen, that could create an issue because interferon is inhibiting the enzymes that are necessary to detoxify the acetaminophen, then obviously the body might have trouble with just acetaminophen on its own.

MSDF

All interferon betas, do they vary in their effects?

Dr. Kowalec

Yes. The versions that people with MS get as a drug therapy, there is a few different variations. So I guess half of them are made in a Chinese hamster ovary cell line, and then the other half are made in an E. coli cell line. So there are differences in the immunogenicity of those two forms, so the ones that are made in the animal cell lines are more similar to the version that we would all make endogenously, whereas the versions that are made in the E. coli cell lines are different, they're slightly more immunogenic. They're just more foreign than what we would normally make.

MSDF

Is it a difference in amino acid sequence, or glycosylation, or both?

Dr. Kowalec

Yeah, exactly. So the amino acid sequence is slightly different for the E. coli cell line versions, as well as the E. coli version is not glycosylated. So, again, that's why it's a little bit different than the human version.

MSDF

Do you know some of the mechanisms by which interferon betas cause liver injury?

Dr. Kowalec

So how it causes liver injury exactly is certainly unknown, and that's definitely an area of which I'm trying to figure out. There's two sort of competing theories, I guess. One is that interferon, because we make it endogenously, but this version is obviously still different than the version we make, it might be that obviously in MS they have an aberrant immune system; they could be recognizing the interferon as being a foreign agent and its attacking it, and then some of the cytokines that are released might be targeting the liver. So that's one theory. The other theory is that once interferon is incorporated into the cell, it might have some sort of direct effect on the mitochondria, and so it might be that it's reducing the energy metabolism of the cell and causing harm into the liver. But which of those two, we're not sure yet.

MSDF

Do you know risk factors for liver injury, and as they are picked up by aminotransferase elevations?

Dr. Kowalec

Yes. And some of the risk factors that we know for interferon-induced liver injury are related to gender, age. Sometimes it's polypharmacy, so whether or not they're taking acetaminophen or ibuprofen. One study will come out that'll say that there is an effect, one study comes out there's no effect, so it's still a little bit unclear. With gender, we know that for males they are more likely to have some of the more minor transient elevations in the aminotransferases, whereas females are more likely to be at risk for the more severe symptomatic hepatitis, or liver injury, I guess.

MSDF

And is it equally prevalent, or there's different gender prevalences?

Dr. Kowalec

I would say that overall when we looked at all the genders together, it was about the same, about 1 in 50, or 2% or so. I would say that if you're looking at just severe injury, the effect that's more symptomatic, something that a patient would actually notice, it's likely that females are more susceptible.

MSDF

What about duration of treatment, does that have an effect; early, late, how long?

Dr. Kowalec

Yeah, typically it's quite quick that they would experience this. So the median time is about the first 3 months is the greatest risk period—I guess probably 3 to 6 months – but it certainly can still occur later on, say even 2 to 5 years, or even 7 years later on, so that's why it's still really necessary to remain diligent on testing their liver aminotransferase levels even later on, even like I said, 5 to 7 years after being on treatment. The effect doesn't seem to go away, for some people anyways.

MSDF

I suppose while you're taking it you're getting older, and also you probably have different medications coming in and out.

Dr. Kowalec

Yeah, and it's not even just the other pharmaceutical therapies that you're taking, it could also be your diet, how much you exercise. There's a lot of things that can affect the liver aminotransferases, unfortunately, so sometimes it can be difficult to determine whether or not it's actually interferon beta that's the causative agent.

MSDF

What should patients be looking for?

Dr. Kowalec

You know, I think just staying up with a healthy lifestyle; not drinking excessively, eating the right foods, making sure that whatever therapies that you are taking are compatible with interferon. Your neurologist or your clinician will advise you on those areas anyways, and also keeping an open dialog with your neurologist in that you know exactly what the risks are with taking any medication. And most times your clinician will be able to tell you everything that'll be possible side effects, so just keeping an open dialog with the clinicians, I think, is great.

MSDF

Are there symptoms which might raise concern?

Dr. Kowalec

You know, I mean sort of the typical things that we think of with liver issues, like jaundice, abdominal pain—they're really like, I mean, abdominal pain that can be a symptom from many different things, right? Malaise, same thing. Really I would say jaundice is probably one of the things that would stick out in my mind to most people as having an issue with your liver, right? By the time you notice symptoms, it certainly is in the more severe end, so usually you have something else that would precede that, like the abnormal blood work. So most people don't get to that stage, which is good.

MSDF

Is there something physicians should be doing or looking out for?

Dr. Kowalec

No, I would say they're doing a really great job with just monitoring the blood work. They know that once typically patients get to 5 times the upper limit of normal for ALT, or the liver aminotransferase, that's when it's recommended that they stop the drug. So normally because they are tested quite often for the blood work abnormalities, the clinicians are really going to go about monitoring by lowering the dose of the drug or just stopping them, and then slowly titrating them back on again. They still have many options if they experience the side effects, so they're doing a great job with monitoring.

MSDF

Is this becoming less of a problem with new drugs, vis-à-vis, interferon beta itself?

Dr. Kowalec

I believe almost all of the new oral medications have all had some case reports of having liver injury associated with them, which is unfortunate. But, again, like I said, most drugs will use the liver in order to be detoxified, it's not, I guess, surprising that this is happening. So I think that we definitely need to study the theory. And that's sort of why we're studying interferon beta, because there's so many people that have taken it, there's enough people that we can study, whereas the new medications, they haven't reached sort of that level yet; they don't have 20 years of data yet. So that's why interferon beta really represents a really great way to study this type of side effect, because now hopefully maybe some of these findings we can apply to the new medications that are going to be more relevant in the future.

MSDF

Have you been able to see whether a history of interferon beta affects susceptibility to liver injury with any of the newer drugs?

Dr. Kowalec

I've seen a few patients that have had liver toxicity from interferon, and then gone on to take, say, glatiramer, and they have had that same reaction, or Copaxone. Individual clinic, they've seen it, but they just haven't had many publications on that, so it's sort of unclear, I guess, right now. I guess I should still say in the wider literature in other liver toxicity from, say, like antibiotics, there are some common mechanisms. It seems like that some people, that if they have it to one drug, they have it to multiple drugs. So there could be some underlying, I guess, common mechanisms between all of them.

MSDF

It would be hard to separate out whether it's a function of the patient being susceptible liver to liver injury from almost anything, versus having a history specifically of beta-interferon.

Dr. Kowalec

Yeah, we don't know the long-term effects of interferon beta, we don't know really what happens to them in the long run. We can only really follow the ones that have had the really severe outcomes, like liver transplant, for example. But people that experience the more minor elevations, or even the level that we study, most often we see that the liver enzymes go back down to normal. But, you know, we're only looking at this for maybe 5 to 7 years, and then after that we don't know what happens. And then, of course, then once they get older, you would expect that things might go downhill and they might have more issues.

MSDF

Have we missed anything important?

Dr. Kowalec

This is an area that with respect to toxicity with the MS medications, it's definitely an area that is not as well studied, because, of course, the overall goal is to have an effective treatment. If we have an effective and safe treatment, that's the end goal, but that's not always what happens, because we can't sort of have everything that we really need. And so I think studying these areas is definitely really important, because although patients want their disability to be prevented, they're willing to take a lot of risk. And they shouldn't have to, they should be able to have an effective treatment that is safe, as well. So I think by studying these adverse drug reactions more often, I think we'll hopefully get to that end goal eventually.

MSDF

Very good, thank you.

[transition music]

Thank you for listening to Episode Eighty of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Seventy-nine of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

Wouldn't it be great to be able to predict who will develop MS? Then those people could be followed prospectively, possibly medication could eventually avert the disease, and at least some medical planning could be done early. Immunologist Dr. Nancy Monson, an associate professor in the department of neurology and neurotherapeutics at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, has developed a promising diagnostic test for relapsing-remitting MS that looks at unique antibody gene mutation signatures in B cells in cerebrospinal fluid.

Interviewee – Nancy Monson

We can identify with 86-92% accuracy patients who either have MS or will develop MS in the future.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

How long is the future?

Dr. Monson

So the longest patient we've tracked so far is 17 months out.

MSDF

And how quickly might this turn into MS?

Dr. Monson

As soon as immediate. It kind of depends on, you know, what the patient's history has been really in that respect.

MSDF

This is tested so far on a pretty small cohort, is that right?

Dr. Monson

No, we tested it on three different smaller cohorts here at UT Southwestern. And then when DioGenix licensed the IP on MS PreCISe, they actually took it to clinical trials, and we're writing that workup now. And that was 300 patients in that trial.

MSDF

It looks like there's very good sensitivity, but what's the specificity in terms of other kinds of neurological diseases, inflammatory diseases, anything else?

Dr. Monson

Right. So we're just starting to figure that out. So the accuracy is based on comparing true patients who convert or evolve to MS versus patients who do not. That's where the accuracy mathematics comes from. But in that respect, the control patients that we've looked at so far, the majority of them have very low scores to no score detectable at all in those patients. But some of them do have higher scores. And we don't understand that yet, because we don't really understand any CNS disease for that matter and how the immune system is operating in there. But we're working on trying to expand the control cohorts that we can really kind of nail down, you know, which ones they'll be different from and which ones they won't be different from.

MSDF

Is it worth doing healthy controls also?

Dr. Monson

Not really. Healthy controls are always really low, and so I don't think that's a very fair comparer because it's just not very stringent, right? It's not very hard to be able to figure out who are the healthy donors with MS PreCISe. But when you start looking at people that mimic MS, like people with sarcoidosis and people with neuromyelitis optica, you know, then, you start to really have a rigorous ability to test MS PreCISe. And it's quite possible, when we start expanding those kind of control cohorts, the mimics of MS, that the MS PreCISe scoring mechanism will have to be adjusted to kind of push those different control groups away from the MS group and distinguish the two better.

MSDF

When we talk about these gene mutation signatures, what are you really looking at? Or for?

Dr. Monson

So if you think about B cells in the blood, they produce antibodies, which are designed to survey the entire body for infection. Okay? So the way that they do that is to have a really great ability to bind to infectious agents or foreign agents in your body. So the mechanism that a B cell uses to do that is called somatic hypermutation or affinity maturation. And what that means is just fancy immunology speak for saying that they incorporate mutations into their antibody genes in order to bind to their targets better, okay? So it makes them more effective in being able to find them and to stick to them.

So we've done an initial look at the different antibody genes that were being used by MS patients versus our control cohorts, and didn't really see that the genes themselves were that different that they were using. So then we thought, well, maybe it's the somatic hypermutations that they're putting into those genes that are really different from what we see in the controls, and that's what turned out to be true. So it turns out that there is a family of antibody genes that incorporate these somatic hypermutations allowing them to bind to their target better that we don't see in healthy people or people with other neurological diseases. In fact, in some cases some of these codons will accumulate mutations up to seven times more than what we see in control cohorts. And that's what MS PreCISe is based on, is the accumulation of those mutations into those six codons. So the more mutations there are in those six codons, the higher the MS PreCISe score you get, and the more likely it is that you actually have MS.

MSDF

Are you essentially losing tolerance here, because of the hypermutation there's more chance that you're going to start to recognize self-antigens?

Dr. Monson

So we have actually taken the antibodies that have these somatic hypermutations in those six codons and looked to see if they bind to human brain tissue. And it turns out that they absolutely do, hands down. We've tested 38 of those so far, and 90% of them bind to neurons in the brain. So we know they bind to self-antigens, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean that they've lost tolerance or that they're proinflammatory, for example. It's possible that the B cells that are making these antibodies are actually somehow able to quiet the immune system. We don't know yet because we haven't been able to do those experiments to see. But obviously, when you see a lot of B cells that are reactive to the brain, right, that they're antibodies are reacted to the brain, that is an alarm to us that they have probably overstepped their boundaries, have not gone to school correctly and done what they're supposed to do. But we still have some experiments to do to make sure that that's what's going on with it.

MSDF

I suppose that leads to a question of, are they pathogenic in themselves? Or are they bystanders or regulatory somehow else?

Dr. Monson

Right. That's a really good question, and we don't know the answer to that. There're some experiments we can do to start testing that, but it's very tricky to do those experiments, particularly in the mouse models we have right now. We're not going to give these antibodies to people and see if they get MS, right? So you have to do all that testing in animals or in vitro. And because no one prior to this time has ever actually been able to demonstrate that antibodies from B cells of any type in MS patients actually bind to brain tissue, I mean, this is completely undiscovered country. We're kind of out there on our own trying to figure out how to best ask those questions, and it's a little bit tricky. But I'm fortunate to have a lot of really brilliant people that work with me, and so we'll work on trying to figure out how we can test that in the best way.

MSDF

It seems that people have been looking for years for the antigen or antigens that are being reacted against in MS. Can you isolate anything and try to stimulate these B cells to nail down what the antigen might be? Or because they're so hypermutable, they might react to anything and then expand on their own anyway?

Dr. Monson

Well, we know that they don't recognize all targets, right? So we just published a paper in November of this past year, actually it was October when it came out online. But what that shows is that these MS PreCISe-based antibodies bind to neurons and astrocytes in the gray matter of the human brain. And they don't bind to other tissues. They don't bind to other cell type. They are really fairly specific to neurons and glia in the brain. So we know that part of it already. But the question is, you know, what are they doing there? And is it just an epiphenomenon (is what they call it, right)? Is it just a bystander effect that we're even able to find them? So we just don't know the answers to those questions yet. But all those are good possibilities.

MSDF

Does this depend on the natural propensity of the immune system to create a lot of diversity, generate diversity, because it seems like what you're talking about are all replacement or substitution mutations within these codon hot spots? If you had a deletion or frame shift or something else, you wouldn't see it, because they're not even functional, I assume?

Dr. Monson

Right. That's exactly right. You got that right.

MSDF

Is there any value in combining MRI with the antibody gene signatures for a higher predictive power?

Dr. Monson

So let me be very clear. This test is not meant to replace MRI. MRI is a gold standard in the field. It is essential for physicians to be able to understand the disease and to come up with a plan for how to treat those patients. This is just meant to be a very powerful, supportive, preclinical diagnostic tool to help them base their decisions appropriately. So that's what we're mostly excited about. So, yeah, absolutely. Combined with MRI, I think it'll do an even better job. We actually in the clinical trial we just finished, it's not published yet, what we showed was that when you combine MS PreCISe with oligoclonal banding, the OCB test, that actually you can boost the accuracy of MS PreCISe up to 96% when you combine it with OCB. So that tells us, also, at a scientific level that not only are the genetics of the antibodies important to drive disease, but also that the antibodies probably plays a role in their conversion to MS as well.

MSDF

Based on the efficacy of rituximab that's been shown, and what you've been finding, is there any thought to doing something more permanent, like using CAR T cells to eliminate B cells almost permanently?

Dr. Monson

So as a B cell biologist, it's really somewhat offensive to think that we are going to get rid of B cells in all these people, and they're going to be able to be okay with that. We rely a lot on B cells differentiating into plasma cells and living in the bone marrow and making antibodies against things that we see all the time. But when we start depleting B cells from people long-term, it's possible that their humoral immunity, which is composed partly of the B cells and their antibody products, will not be able to fight newer infections because, you know, there's no new B cells to learn about those new infections.

So no, I don't think it's a wise decision that we continue to use rituximab and ocrelizumab. I think that they are the next step. They're a transitional stage that we need before we can get to the true gold standard, which would be a way to deplete just the B cells that are involved in pathogenesis of the disease. My stump on that would be that we should be making B cell depleting antibodies that only recognize those B cells that carry the MS PreCISe antibodies, and those are the B cells we should be getting rid of. But we have a lot of work to do to be able to show that they really are the ones that drive evolution to MS.

MSDF

What is MS PreCISe? Is this a commercial test now?

Dr. Monson

So MS PreCISe is its commercial name, but it has not been rolled out yet. It's just beginning into a CLIA lab right now. So hopefully within the next year, it will be an orderable test.

MSDF

One thing I noticed in one of your papers was you said it wasn't feasible at the time the paper was written to be doing this en masse because it was a very tedious procedure. So does this test essentially make it more feasible?

Dr. Monson

Yeah. The way we discovered MS PreCISe was actually looking at the antibody genetics of single B cells, which we sequenced using Sanger sequencing. Sanger sequencing is a very elegant immunogenetics-type method. So we spent about a year and a half re-tooling that technology to use next-generation sequencing. So now all we need to do is get a spinal fluid from a patient, and then we extract the DNA directly from that, and we sequence from the entire pool instead. And actually, what's nice about it is we also get a much deeper database from each single patient because we see all of the DNA from that sample now instead of just the few B cells we were able to sort before. It's really nice in that respect because we get a much broader idea of the repertoire. So that is what MS PreCISe is based on is being able to use next-generation sequencing now to really pull those antibody genetics out of individual patients.

MSDF

What are the unanswered questions at this point?

Dr. Monson

Well, there are a lot. But I think the one that strikes me the most is whether or not we can pull the antibody gene signature out of the blood. If we can do that, it would get rid of all these spinal fluid taps that our patients have to undergo right now. And so we're working really hard to see if we can find a way to pull them out of the blood so we don't have to do these spinal fluid samplings any more. That's probably our biggest one.

The other thing that we're really interested in, once we can find the signature in the blood, it shouldn't be too hard for us, then, to start asking questions about whether or not family members have a higher risk of getting MS. Which is probably one of the primary questions I get from patients all the time: Can you test my daughter? You know, I'm worried about her maybe getting MS someday. And so that motivates us to think, yeah, we got to get this test ready in the blood so we can start asking those kind of questions. I also think MS PreCISe will be a good monitoring tool. I mean, maybe we do keep treating patients with rituximab, but we don't re-treat them unless they're MS PreCISe score starts to creep back up again. So we're hoping that it's a way to also monitor efficacy of different drugs for that matter. So those are the things we're really working on pretty hard right now.

MSDF

Great. I appreciate it. Thanks.

Dr. Monson

Sure. Thank you.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Seventy-nine of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

Full Transcript:

[intro music]

Host – Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Seventy-eight of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

A lot can be learned about pregnancy and MS by tracking pregnant women and their offspring over time. Dr. Dessa Sadovnick, a professor of medical genetics and neurology at the University of British Columbia in Canada, has started such a registry with international colleagues. I spoke with her at the World Congress of Neurology in Santiago, Chile, in November, where she described these efforts and what a very focused registry can tell us.

Interviewee – Dessa Sadovnick

I'm not talking about a general registry. What I'm talking about is a pregnancy and outcome registry. So this is not just taking people who have MS and trying to keep track of them. This is looking at actual pregnancy outcomes and what happens to the children after. So it's a very specific type of registry.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

It seems like there's a multitude of variables you can look at. What sorts of things are you going to be tracking if you get this going?

Dr. Sadovnick

Well, I think the important factor is that just because you have a disease such as multiple sclerosis doesn't mean you're immune from other factors that can affect pregnancy outcome and child development. So in addition to knowing about drug therapies, disease course, other exposures related to your MS, it's also important to know about your previous pregnancy history, your family history, your basic demographics, including your ethnic background, comorbid diseases which you may also have with the MS. All these factors can affect pregnancy outcome and child health.

MSDF

Will you be looking at the mother's longitudinally? Or only the children?

Dr. Sadovnick

Ideally, we'd like to be able to look at the mothers up to a year post-partum, and then follow the children longitudinally. Because there are situations where children do not have a certain disease that the mother may have, but over time, they might be found to have some late onset problems, for example, related to learning disabilities or something like that.

MSDF

Can you separate those out by biological cause or environmental cause? They're in a household with people who have a disease and have to deal with it.

Dr. Sadovnick

Well, we know for a fact in terms of MS that there is certainly no transmissibility within a household. We have done a lot of work over the years that show very clearly that the excess of MS you find within biological relatives of people who have MS is very clearly due to genetic sharing, not shared family environment. So from that point of view of the child inheriting MS, we're not looking at the family environment.

Obviously, there're many psychological issues and many socioeconomic issues related to having a parent who has a chronic disabling disorder. And the impact this could have on child development must, of course, be taken into consideration. But what I'm trying to look at here is more the general factors in terms of, if the mother is exposed to a disease-modifying therapy at the time of conception or in early gestation, and if there is an adverse outcome in the pregnancy, is that necessarily correlated? Or could that have happened for many other reasons?

Similarly, if the child develops problems down the road, could that be related, maybe, to the uterine environment because the mother has an autoimmune disease? Which does not mean the child gets an autoimmune disease, but maybe, in some way, it impacts the autoimmunity long-term?

MSDF

How long would you have to track children? And how many would you have to track to get meaningful numbers?

Dr. Sadovnick

Well, this is obviously always a concern, and you would have to track a sizable number. But when you consider how many people there are with MS in North America, and if you could do a centralized registry, I think it's realistic that you follow them at least for a few years after delivering. Once they start reaching their developmental milestones, you can get some ideas. But I think the main factor is that we're always saying, therapy is not indicated if you're contemplating a pregnancy. And this causes many issues for many people. But the evidence for this is so scarce. And my big concern is that, are we really being overly cautious? And we won't know this if every adverse outcome is automatically trying to be related to exposures either at conception or in the early parts of gestation.

MSDF

Pregnancy itself is immunosuppressive, but it seems women have a rebound after delivery. So what goes on with treatment during pregnancy? Is it okay to stop treatment if they're naturally going to be somewhat immunosuppressed?

Dr. Sadovnick

This is one of the big areas that we really don't have information, and we need good information. Obviously, if you look at a series of women, what seems to happen is especially in the third trimester, they seem to do better. And then, of course, once you deliver and their hormonal changes take place, there's an increase of relapses after delivery within the first three months. That's not to say women can't have relapses while they're pregnant. That is not to say that women are going to have relapses necessarily after delivery. But if you look at large numbers, this is the pattern. The question then comes up, if you have a relapse while you're pregnant, how severe is the relapse? And how should it be treated? There're no set guidelines. The same way as after delivery, a big factor is whether the mother's breastfeeding or not breastfeeding. In today's society, you're really encouraged to breastfeed, but that could have impacts on how you treat a relapse.

The other big issue in terms of pregnancy-related relapses is something that we also experience when we look at people who have MS and they're going into menopause. And that is, are the symptoms really an MS relapse? Or could they be pregnancy-related? If you have a symptom, say you have urinary problems, say you have balance problems, say you have fatigue, how do you measure if this is specifically an MS relapse versus just part of either the later stages of pregnancy, the early stages of pregnancy, or living with a newborn child? There is really nothing concrete on how to measure what's a true relapse, what's a pseudo-relapse. And there are no really specific guidelines on how to treat these symptoms during gestation and immediately after delivery. This is an area that we really need to develop.

One of the things that we have been able to do is a lot of people are interested in this topic, but it's never been looked at in a formalized manner using experts from many different areas. So about a year and a half ago, I put together a meeting of a group of people who are interested in reproduction and child health. And we received some funding to have a two-day meeting from the Canadian Institute of Health Research, as well as some money from Teva Neurosciences and Biogen Idec. And what we did is we had a two-day workshop basically saying, is there a need to learn more about this area? And if there is, how can all these specialists work together to try to develop knowledge-based information?

So we gave our little virtual network, which has no ongoing funding; it's basically people just working voluntarily. We've given it the name of MS CERCH, which is Center of Excellence for Reproduction and Child Health. And we've put together a voluntary working group. And where we're at right now is we've actually just had a paper published in Obstetrics and Gynecology, the American main journal. They also call it a Green Journal, but it's not neurology. Just talking about limitations, guidelines, what we know and what we don't know about reproduction and child health. So this was published the end of 2014.

We're currently working with the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology to try to have our paper turned into some guidelines for people with multiple sclerosis. We've also just recently as a group published a paper talking about why there is a need for a disease-specific registry rather than a treatment-specific registry.

We are also just submitted a manuscript looking at all the issues dealing with males with MS in terms of reproduction and child health, because the focus, of course, is on females. But there're still a lot of males out there, and they face many issues that have not been addressed. And we're in the process of trying to get some funding for the first-ever grant to look prospectively at the occurrence of peripartum depression in both mothers and fathers who have multiple sclerosis, a topic that's never been looked at before. So from our two-day meeting, which was quite casual and informal, we have been able to move forward, and as a group, had some concrete outcomes. And we're hoping that we're be able to move forward with this group, hopefully obtain appropriate funding, and we're be able to, maybe, really come up with some knowledge-based information for people with MS who are contemplating reproduction.

Another major area of concern is we're more frequently now identifying the pediatric population with multiple sclerosis. The focus on this population has largely been the recognition that MS does occur in the pediatric population. But what's happening is as years are progressing, this pediatric population is evolving into a population who are capable of reproduction. How diagnosis of pediatric MS can impact not only reproductive ideas, but also just behavior in teenagers, and how all this is interrelated is not known as well. So it's a whole other area that we really need to understand.

MSDF

Are you looking for buy in from clinicians in all of North America? Or restricted to Canada? Or worldwide?

Dr. Sadovnick

Ideally, we'd like worldwide. Realistically, right now in our group, we're basically clinicians who are in Canada and the US. We have some buy in from some clinicians in Europe, and it's the obvious problem when you don't have resources, the buy in has to be voluntary. So we do have strong connections between Canada and the US, and we're working forward to try to make this a topic that is more at the forefront.

MSDF

You have a pretty good system of linked databases in Canada. Can that help you with this? I mean, you know diagnoses and pharmacy and death records and hospital visits and everything else.

Dr. Sadovnick

Linked databases are a very important resource, but they are exactly what they are: linked databases. You're not dealing with the actual people. You're dealing with how the information has been recorded. So while for some purposes linked databases are extremely important, and there's been a lot of work published out of Canada, including with our group in British Columbia using the BC record linkages. They are informative. But it's not the same as actually dealing with the actual people, because record linkage cannot tell you everything you need to know about the person.

Just to use an example in terms of pregnancy outcome. You can identify a woman who has MS. You can look at when she had prescriptions filled for her disease-modifying therapy, for example. You can look at if any birth defects were registered for the child. But what you don't know is, did this mother have previous pregnancy losses? Registries only have live births. Does the mother have a family history of some relative with a certain disease? Could the mother have comorbid diseases that for some reason are not linked into her medical history? Maybe she's moved from another country. Maybe she doesn't have the health coverage. So there's a lot of issues with record linkage. And I think it's very important to know that it has strengths and limitations. But it's not the actual end of everything.

The other issue with record linkage is it's someone's interpretation. For example, if it's recorded through record linkage that you have a given disease, it's assumed that all the appropriate diagnostic tests have been done. But is that necessarily the case? Could the person who's actually doing the coding reading from the records make that assumption? So you have to be careful.

Years ago when I started in clinical genetics, we had a BC health surveillance registry. And the idea was to basically identify any children who had been within the hospital system in the first seven years of their life. And it was a provincial recording system. But the truth of the matter was is when we went back, and I spent a lot of time working with colleagues going back and reviewing the actual forms from which the data was collected, and the amount of errors you would find. Even in something as simple as MS, looking at cause of death.

If you look at record linkage, sometimes it doesn't always note the cause of death the person had MS. Sometimes if there's asphyxia, the question is, was it just asphyxia? Is it related to the MS? Is it from something else? Another issue is very often people who have a specific disease like multiple sclerosis and they die, the real cause of death is ignored. Very often we know that cancer, for example, is underdiagnosed in a person with a specific disease like MS. Just because you're having bladder problems, it's often attributed to MS, where in fact, you could actually have bladder cancer, as an example, or bowel cancer. So if you look at all these data, I think it's important to realize that record linkage is a very useful tool, but it is not the only tool that should be used.

MSDF

Finally, where does this all stand? You mentioned that you have people doing it on a voluntary basis. Do you foresee something more formal?

Dr. Sadovnick

We're trying to get something more formal in North America. Obviously, funding is the issue. And right now we're trying to get the drug companies to realize that, if they would work together to have a proper pregnancy registry, it might be in everybody's interest, rather than just assuming that the drugs are not advised during pregnancy or when trying to conceive.

The problem with all these registries is that where does the money come from? In Canada, we have a very interesting scenario right now where they're trying to put together a registry of people who have multiple sclerosis in Canada. This has nothing to do with pregnancy. This is just, who has multiple sclerosis in Canada? A registry with minimal data sets. And this started with the Canadian Institute of Health Informatics. This has been going on for quite a few years, and I'm on both the technical and the medical advisory committee for this. But the problem is, who's going to fund it? The concept was to enlist the ministries of health to get involved and fund it, but each ministry of health has its own issues in each province, and their interests are different. So even though the concept there was to try to get a cross-Canada registry for people who have MS, funding after many years of trying is still a major obstacle.

It's a big issue, but this is why I'm hoping at least if we can focus on the idea of pregnancy, maybe through some research funding or company funding, we'll be able to at least get a pilot started that will start to answer some of these questions. A lot of money is being spent by each drug company looking at their treatment-specific pregnancy registries. And if we could get them to realize that if they all work together, we might get somewhere. It would be nice.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Seventy-eight of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

Full transcript:

[intro music]

Host — Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Seventy-seven of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m Dan Keller.

Pregnancy and the postpartum period present special concerns to women with MS. Dr. Annette Langer-Gould, a neurologist and epidemiologist at Kaiser Permanente in Los Angeles, investigates ways to lessen the risk of relapses in these women. We discussed the effects of breastfeeding, among other topics, when we met at the ECTRIMS meeting last fall in Barcelona.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

In terms of pregnancy and breastfeeding in MS, what are you looking at?

Interviewee – Annette Langer-Gould

We're studying modifiable risk factors for postpartum relapses in women with multiple sclerosis. And specifically, we are looking at starting therapy shortly after delivery, whether that can reduce the risk of postpartum relapses, whether breastfeeding, particularly breastfeeding exclusively, could reduce the risk of postpartum relapses, and whether vitamin D levels play any role in increasing or decreasing the risk of postpartum relapses.

MSDF

And are these women who are on disease-modifying therapy throughout pregnancy or not?

Dr. Langer-Gould

No. In our population, a little over 60% were treated prior to pregnancy. But we do have a decent number of women who had decided to never go on disease-modifying therapies before, and almost all of them stopped disease-modifying therapies either shortly before or when they find out that they're pregnant.

MSDF

In terms of each of those outcomes, what are you finding?

Dr. Langer-Gould

We haven't analyzed the data for the vitamin D yet, but in the German pregnancy registry, we just published the data in exclusive breastfeeding, and once again showed that exclusive breastfeeding does protect against postpartum relapses. In that population, actually 96% of the women had been on some sort of DMT prior to pregnancy, and none of them were treated throughout pregnancy. We also found that resuming DMTs does not seem to have a big effect on reducing the risk of relapses, particularly in the first six months postpartum.

MSDF

Is that in women who are exclusively breastfeeding or not?

Dr. Langer-Gould

Ah, so that's a good question. So there is no good safety data on taking the medications during breastfeeding. And therefore, many clinicians and most patients are concerned about potential theoretical risks. So behaviors are actually mutually exclusive. Women typically will either breastfeed or resume medications early in the postpartum course. The other thing we find in the Kaiser population is that there are still a fair number of women who neither breastfeed exclusively or resume their medications, which presents sort of an interesting opportunity. If we could show that one or the other behaviors is protective, perhaps we could encourage either exclusive breastfeeding or resuming DMT.

MSDF

If women are not breastfeeding, do you have an idea of the time course of resumption of risk for relapse?

Dr. Langer-Gould

Yes, so the concern about postpartum relapses really is about having a relapse in the first three to four months postpartum. If we look over at the whole pregnancy year, and that's about 30% to 40% of women. So this is actually still the best defined risk period for having a relapse and actually the only clear trigger—with perhaps the exception of upper respiratory tract infections—of relapses. So we know that having just had a baby or having an upper respiratory tract infection is a pretty strong predictor of having a relapse. So it presents sort of a unique opportunity to also look at other biological factors, like vitamin D, which is why we're interested in it, to see if any of these things have a strong role in relapses as well.

MSDF

If women are breastfeeding postpartum, what is the hormonal profile like? Is this almost like an extension of pregnancy?

Dr. Langer-Gould

For women who breastfeed exclusively, meaning that they breastfeed to the point of suppressing their ovaries and not resuming menstruation—so that essentially there's no regular meal that's being replaced by formula or by table food in the baby—they have very high prolactin levels. So it's actually a little bit different than being postmenopausal, in the sense that they have very high prolactin levels. And they have incredibly low nonpulsatile FSH and LH levels. In the postmenopausal period, there occurs a very high FSH and LH levels. The similarity, though, is that they both have bottomed-out estradiol and progesterone levels, in both women who are breastfeeding to the point of suppressing menses and also postmenopausal women. And of course the other similarity is that there's no ovulation occurring, either during pregnancy, during exclusive breastfeeding, or after menopause.

MSDF

So it sounds like breastfeeding is really a hypothalamic pituitary suppressant as opposed to in menopause, where you still have those cranking away, but just no response from the ovaries.

Dr. Langer-Gould

Correct.

MSDF

Can this be used in any clinical sense? Do you see an application?

Dr. Langer-Gould

The most obvious direct way to translate these findings is that that, if you have a woman with MS in front of you and she is pregnant and she tells you she'd like to breastfeed, we certainly have no good reason to discourage her. And that if anything, I would suggest that the data we've already published would point to the fact that we may want to encourage exclusive breastfeeding, provide them with lactation counseling, and also sort out exactly what the optimal duration of exclusive breastfeeding may be for these women. Is it really only eight weeks, which we had defined arbitrarily? Or does longer duration of exclusive breastfeeding have additional suppressive properties? And that would, of course, have implications in the United States for things like maternity leave and work accommodations to allow that to continue, if it has a strong therapeutic effect for the mother.

MSDF

What's the relapse rate among postmenopausal women compared to postpartum women?

Dr. Langer-Gould

So relapse rate declines with age. And so it typically in postmenopausal women, although there's not great data, we would expect them to have relapse rates of less than 0.3 per year, Annualized relapse rates of less than 0.3 per year. And in postpartum women, that first three to four months, the annualized relapse rate exceeds one.

MSDF

But men also have a decline in relapse rate as they age, too. So you can't attribute it to lower estradiol.

Dr. Langer-Gould

Exactly. Yeah, I think it's far more complicated than just a simple sex hormone effect. You know, that was sort of our first instinct from pregnancy or the reason pregnancy must be protective. It has to have something to do with estradiol or the very high progesterone levels. And that's what prompted the postpartum study and also the estradiol randomized control trial. And both of those, of course, disappointingly have been negative. In isolation, the sex hormones associated with the protective effect of pregnancy don't really have a protective effect on inflammation. It's probably more of a combination of factors that play into modulating the immune response.

MSDF

Where do you go from here?

Dr. Langer-Gould

I think that if we are able to reproduce the findings, looking at this population-based source, that early resumption of DMTs is not particularly helpful, but perhaps it may be later in the postpartum year, and that exclusive breastfeeding is, again, protective, then I think the next step really is to establish the safety of some of these medications during lactation. For several of them, there's really no biologically plausible reason to think that they would have an effect on the baby, as they're not likely to be absorbed through the gut or enter into the baby's bloodstream.

Examples of that would be the large molecules like Copaxone, the interferons, and also the infusion medications, Tysabri (natalizumab), and rituximab as well. Although you may be able to detect them in breast milk, they are such large molecules that they would not diffuse across the baby's stomach and into the bloodstream. Think about it. If the mom has to take it as a pill, it is very likely to be transmitted to the baby. If the mom has to take it as an infusion or injection, very unlikely that oral route through the baby would have any effect.

MSDF

How sensitive is this effect to, as you said, exclusive breastfeeding? Can you start introducing formula, or it's all or none?

Dr. Langer-Gould

That's a really good question. So we did look at that also in the German pregnancy registry. So first of all, women tend to have very defined behavior. They tend to decide to supplemental feed with formula very, very early, before they've even established their full milk supply. So to back up even further, a healthy woman gives birth to her child. Usually menstruation will resume two months after delivery, not one month. So it does take the HPA gonadal axis a little chance to recover from those high-circulating hormones of pregnancy. And in women who introduce supplemental feedings, particularly early, we also see the very same thing; that they will resume their period at two months postpartum.

Actually, most of the work done in this field has been done by nutritionists who are in developing countries who are interested in knowing what you should do if you see a starving mother and a starving baby. Who should you feed?

It turns out that if you feed the baby, the mother's ovarian function will resume. So any regular supplemental feedings and very quickly their prolactin levels will drop. The pulsatility of the FSH and LH secretion will return. Ovulation returns, and so does menses. It's essentially sending the mother's body a signal that the baby no longer needs nutrition from the mom to survive, so she's ready to have another child. So the right thing to do in that situation would be feed the mom, and let her nurse the child. Biologically, it's very interesting. Even though some breastfeeding is better than none for the baby, in terms of the effect on the mother's HP [hypothalamic-pituitary] ovarian axis, some supplemental feeding is just like all supplemental feeding.

MSDF

Have we missed anything or anything interesting to add?

Dr. Langer-Gould

So I guess I would say just in general, women's, and now even men's, desire to have naturally-born children has taken on a new significance with a lot of the small molecule agents, because we need to consider family planning and discuss it much earlier, as small molecules are likely to have an effect even if they get pregnant accidentally on the developing fetus. This is a challenge we haven't had before, because large molecules won't cross the placenta in the first trimester. And the first trimester is the critical period for organ development.

So it's sort of new era for MS neurologists, where we really, really have to think carefully about which medication we put them on if they're planning on having children soon. So I’d strongly encourage that you have that conversation very early and have it with every followup visit. I typically will ask them, are you planning on having children within the next two years? And if they say, no, I ask what kind of birth control they're on, or in some cases they're in same-sex couples. That's obviously an exception. And if they are not on a reliable form of birth control, I think you need to think twice about giving the small-molecule agents—so the pills, basically.

MSDF

Should MS neurologists work with high-risk OB/GYNs?

Dr. Langer-Gould

I think for the most part it's not necessary, because women with MS, they don't have abnormal complications at pregnancy. I think there are certainly situations that we're running into now. If they get pregnant accidentally on fingolimod, teriflunomide, or Tysabri, we do need to work with them, mostly for the baby. So you may want to do more intense early screening if the mother is culturally open to the idea of having an abortion. You may want to do more fetal ultrasounds, perhaps even a fetal MRI, if there's suspicion of major malformations early on in pregnancy.

And also for the Tysabri, really, it's not so much about organogenesis, but if they've had later exposure to Tysabri during pregnancy, which unfortunately on occasion has been necessary to control rebound disease activity during pregnancy, that, you know, we have seen hematological abnormalities in some of these children, so far none with clinical complications. Only one child had a subclinical intraventricular hemorrhage that resolved. It's still concerning. Our experience is very small, and we would certainly highly recommend that those women give birth in a hospital that has a neonatal intensive care unit available and a pediatrician on call to examine the child and also make sure that the child doesn't have a severe thrombocytopenia or anemia at birth.

MSDF

Do the different drugs have different risks for fetal malformations or other dysfunctions?

Dr. Langer-Gould

Yes. So teriflunomide, or Aubagio, is the most concerning medication because if a woman gets pregnant on that accidentally, it is, you know, a category X drug because it can interfere with neural tube development. And although you can chelate to get the medication out very quickly, the safety data from other indications, you know, the rheumatoid arthritis and lupus literature, is not particularly reassuring in terms of fetal outcomes. So I think that's sort of the number one to stay away from if a woman is planning on getting pregnant. And it's also one where, you know, there is some concern, although not strong evidence, that it may also affect the offspring of men with MS who are on the medication.

In terms of the other ones, of course, again, small molecules in fingolimod has about a 15% to 16% major fetal malformation risk with early pregnancy exposure. It has a very long half-life. So even if they stop the medicine the minute they find out they're pregnant, it takes over two months for it to be cleared, which means that the baby has seen it now through the entire first trimester. That can have significant effects, both on cardiac and brain development. And then with dimethyl fumarate, we haven't seen—now of course, this is a very new drug, so we don't have nearly as much experience—we have not seen any major malformations, but there was concern in the animal models that it could interfere with cognitive development. In particular, the rats had maze-finding difficulty.

MSDF

Is alemtuzumab indicated at all? It seems to have a long tail.

Dr. Langer-Gould

I'm not sure what the half-life of alemtuzumab, but it's probably similar to other monoclonal antibodies, which is usually around 15 to 20 days. So monoclonal antibodies don't cross the placenta in the first trimester, because it's a very large molecule. So large molecules only get across if there's an active transport system. For antibodies, there is an active transport system, because it's very important that the child be born with a high dose of antibodies received from the mother to help protect them during the early part of their infancy while their own immune system is still developing.

So we see maternal antibodies being transported, and of course, monoclonal antibody medications would be dragged along with that during second trimester. And it goes up in elliptical fashion, with very, very high amounts being pumped across the placenta in third trimester. And they also, of course, have a very delayed clearance mechanism, both the fetus really has no clearance mechanism, and then even the neonate has a very slow clearance mechanism. So in TNF alpha studies, if the drug is given during third trimester, it's typically not cleared until about six to nine months postpartum.

So you also have to be concerned that a baby exposed would have some of that medication hanging around during the early neonatal period and give some thought to whether or not their immunization scheme would need to be adjusted, as the cautionary tale there would be TNF alpha exposure during pregnancy.

There was a case reported of a woman who had very severe rheumatological disease, had discussed with her rheumatologist the potential risks and benefits of taking it throughout pregnancy, opted to take it throughout pregnancy. And then living in an endemic area for tuberculosis, the baby got the BCG vaccine and got disseminated mycobacterium and died. And that, you know, was probably directly related to impaired immunity from the TNF alpha antagonist. And sure enough, the baby was born with fairly high cord levels and also had very high levels still remaining in the blood in the neonatal period.

So it's not just once the baby's born, it's like the drug is out. So drugs like alemtuzumab and rituximab, the way in which they work, even though the drug could be long gone, but the effect of the medication works very long time. So those are actually good choices for women with highly active disease who are planning on getting pregnant. And you have concerns about rebound. I mean, we typically use rituximab because it's obviously much safer than alemtuzumab and seems to do a fairly good job. But you know, these aren't medications we should be giving while they're pregnant, but probably not a big effect in crossing the placenta and on the baby if they're used prior to pregnancy.

MSDF

If they can plan that well and get a pulse of that early, and then get pregnant a few months later.

Dr. Langer-Gould

Yes. Yeah, that's always the trick, right? And they do get pregnant accidentally on just about everything we put them on. So the infrequent infusion medications is the easiest because you can ask about last menstrual period. And you can ask about birth control use, and you can do a pregnancy test the day of, a quick urine dipstick and find out so that you don't accidentally infuse a pregnant woman. Of course with Tysabri, when you're giving them an infusion every month, it gets a little tricky. Usually people just kind of get tired of it. The nurses forget. The doctor forgets to order it, although it's not necessarily bad practice if you know you have a patient who is not on a reliable form of birth control.

MSDF

Very good. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Langer-Gould

You're welcome.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Seventy-seven of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol Cruzan Morton. Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of Scientific Operations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

[intro music]

Host — Dan Keller

Hello, and welcome to Episode Seventy-six of MultipleSclerosisDiscovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’mDanKeller.

Pregnancy presents special considerations for women withMS.Beyond the medical and pharmacological issues, there aresocial,socioeconomic, and parenting concerns. Dr. Dessa Sadovnick,aprofessor of medical genetics and neurology at the UniversityofBritish Columbia in Canada, spoke on issues ranging frompregnancyplanning through the postpartum period at the WorldCongress ofNeurology in Santiago, Chile, in November, where we metup.

Interviewer – Dan Keller

Let's talk about gender and hormonal issues in pregnancy.Whatare some of the things you're looking at now?

Interviewee – Dessa Sadovnick

Well, in terms of gender, it's really been interesting thefactthat initially it was actually thought that men may have MSmoreoften than females. And now, of course, it's very wellestablished,as with many other autoimmune diseases, that femalesare affectedmuch more than males. The question is why? And there'sa lot ofresearch being done into hormones, especially theestrogens, theestradiols, to try to see how that relates to diseaseonset,clinical course, etc. But again, there's no reallyfirmanswers.

We do know that the hormonal changes during pregnancy do seemtoreduce the number of relapses during gestation, and as soon asyoudeliver, the relapse rate goes up very high. So this is one areaofbig interest. There's been some recent work published onmenopause,and it does not seem that women who have MS havemenopause earlierthan other women or later than other women. Theredoesn'tnecessarily seem to be a direct effect between clinicalcourse andmenopause, other than to say that a lot of the symptomsdo overlap.So you have to be very careful, as a clinician, todecide whetheryou're talking about MS-related symptoms or symptomsthat might beamenable to treatment just for regular menopause.

Puberty is a very key period in MS. We know that you can getMSprior to puberty, but it is recognized now in thepediatricpopulation that the group who have it prior to puberty dohave amore similar female to male ratio. It's only once pubertyhits thatyou have the excess in the females.

MSDF

Does pregnancy permanently change physiology compared tothepre-pregnant state, or do people go back to their baselinerelapserisk after some point?

Dr. Sadovnick

There is no evidence to say that having a pregnancy willchangeyour long-term course or your outcome after a given period oftime.It seems like people on the whole, and everything is always onthewhole because there's always the exception, but in general,youtend to go back to what you were like before, taking intoaccountthat, after pregnancy, you'll have had a longer diseaseduration.Just an example, if it takes you a year to becomepregnant, thennine months pregnancy, three months postpartum, thenext time youlook at it you're two years since before you tried toget pregnant;so you're two years more into the disease. But there'sno evidencethat pregnancy harms the long-term outcome of MS, andthere's noevidence that not getting pregnant is beneficial forwomeneither.

MSDF

Is there a physiologic explanation for the higher relapserateafter pregnancy? Is it easily identified, or is itprettyhypothetical?

Dr. Sadovnick

Well, it's thought to be related to the changes in hormonesassoon as a woman delivers. But there's nothing that can mark ittosay this woman's going to get it, this woman's not going tohaveit. You know, there's no marker that's going to say who's goingtohave a relapse after delivery, who isn't.

MSDF

Even though there's not much data right now about many ofthedrugs used in MS and pregnancy, women are advised oftentimes nottobe on the drugs, but they also don't immediately get pregnant.Sodo they have a long period potentially of risk of relapse, anddoesthat affect the long-term course eventually?

Dr. Sadovnick

Well, there's been controversy in the literature aboutwhetherthe number of relapses a woman has while shehasrelapsing-remitting MS affects her emergence intosecondaryprogressive MS. So there's been controversy at thefindings aboutwhether the number of relapses predicts how soonyou're going to gointo a progressive phase or not. As far as I'maware, the mostrecent information suggests that they might be twoindependentfactors. So, it's a hard question to answer.

Obviously, the drugs don't cure MS. So it's not that you'regoingto prevent MS by taking the drugs or stop MS dead in itscourse bytaking the drugs. You're taking a risk. [With] anyrelapse, youdon't know whether there's going to be a completerecovery or apartial recovery. The more relapses you have, theharder everythingis in day-to-day life and coping and recovery,and getting pregnantis not something that happens instantaneously.So it's a bigdecision that women do have to make. And there's noreal easy answerfor saying who will do well being off themedication for awhile, whowon't do well being off for awhile.

It's an informed decision that people have to make. And wesayit's very important that if you're planning a pregnancy, toreallylook at all the information that's relevant to yourparticularsituation and make an informed decision about yoursituation.There's no general answer for everybody. And we've comeup withsome reproductive counseling models that deal with the wholeareaof reproduction and reproductive planning.

Now, one thing that I find that people often don't tend tothinkabout is that they think of getting pregnant in termsofconceiving, having a pregnancy, delivering, and the threemonthspostpartum. But they forget the fact that once you do have achild,there's a lot of commitment you have for a long timemovingforward. It's not just your three-month postpartum relapseratethat you're concerned about. And people have to be verycognizantthat if they do have a chronic disorder, that this willhave someimpact on their socioeconomic status, on their ability toparent,on relationships; all this has to be taken into account. Andtwo ofthe things that we often say to people who are planning apregnancyis: One, remember that it's a long-term commitment; andtwo, as aparent, instead of focusing so much on what youcan't dobecause you're a parent who has MS, maybe youshould focus more onwhat you can do. And I think that's avery good attitudeto have.

I remember many years ago we had a woman who was just soupset,because in the city she lived in there was a big annualfestivalfair every year. And she'd take her children there, and bythe endof the day she was hot, she was tired, she'd have a relapse,she'dbe in bed, but she felt it was her duty, as a parent, to takethechildren to this festival. So we just talked about it fromapractical point of view, nothing specifically medical oranythinglike that. And said, well, what would happen if you wentwith yourkids with someone else; you stayed in a nice shady place,you had,you know, something cold to drink. Your kids went off anddid allthe running around, and then they'd come back and report toyouwhat they're doing. And, you know, try a day like that insteadofyou're being the one to kill yourself running around with themtoall the activities. And she came back to the clinic a coupleofyears later, and she says, you know, it was such a difference.Thekids had a good time, and instead of my being in bed for thenexttwo weeks, we went out for dinner after, and lifecontinued.

So I think that that's so important when you're talkingaboutplanning pregnancies is you have to think forward. You knowthatfor anybody having a baby in the newborn period, it's tiring,it'sstressful, not only for just the mother, but also for thefatherwhether he has MS or not. So if you know this is going tohappen,before you get to the point where you're in such a stateofexhaustion and relapses start happening, maybe plan ahead.Noteverybody can afford nannies or housekeepers or things likethat;that's a fact of life. But there's nothing to say you can'ttalk tofriends and work out a system where you get a bit of extrahelp inadvance, not just wait till you hit the crisis mode.

MSDF

And I suppose in the early postpartum period you could beverysleep-deprived.

Dr. Sadovnick

You can be very sleep-deprived, and then you have tostartthinking. If you're a father whose wife has just had a baby,maybeyou should try to sleep in a different room, not worryaboutgetting up when the baby gets up during the night. If you'reamother who has MS, maybe you want to reconsiderbreastfeeding.Maybe you want to consider expressing, so that you'renot upconstantly with the baby. You have to be practical. And Ithinkthat that is the big factor is: in theory there's so manythingsyou're supposed to do, but you actually have to be practical.Thefatigue component with a newborn is not going to go awayregardlessof if you have MS or not. So if you know in advance youhave MS,and it's going to be more of an issue, why not try to makesomepractical plans?

MSDF

You had mentioned the changing sex ratio mainly becausemorewomen are being diagnosed with MS. Is it that there is more MSorbetter diagnosis or some other reason for this increase inthegender ratio with women predominating?

Dr. Sadovnick

Looking at it in terms of a gender ratio, you're basicallytakingout factors, such as improved diagnostic techniques. So whatwe'restarting to think is that females react differently toenvironmentaltriggers than do males, and this could be a reasonfor the increasein females. Women are living a very different lifetoday than theydid even 30 years ago in terms of occupation, beingout of thehouse, exposures. Women react differently to vitamin D.Women havedifferent smoking habits in reacting. So we're thinkingthat what'shappening is that the female is actually responding toenvironmentalfactors in a different way now or being exposed morethan she wasmaybe a few decades ago.

MSDF

Do women live proportionately longer with MS? Could they justbegetting older, and the men aren't getting as old, and thatchangesthe ratio at that end of the spectrum?

Dr. Sadovnick

Life expectancy does not really seem to be dramaticallyalteredin multiple sclerosis for males or for females. We've donestudieswith actuarians from life insurance companies looking atthis, andMS really doesn't kill you. So I don't think lifeexpectancy is afactor.

MSDF

Anything interesting or important to add?

Dr. Sadovnick

Well, I think that a big difference is that there used to bealong lag time from the onset of the MS symptoms until youwerediagnosed. So a lot of life decisions, whether it wasdating,partnering, reproduction, or in that period when you reallydidn'tknow that you had a diagnosis, so in many ways ignorance wasbliss.You didn't really have to make decisions.

Now, of course, with the new techniques, people aregettingdiagnosed so much earlier in the disease. And they're beingtoldthat you have MS, you'll do fine, you know, there are therapiesyoucan try. You're still a person who has a life to lead. You'renotan MS patient for your whole life. So but every decision theymakethey have to go out and decide disclosure and how to deal withthefact that they now have a diagnosis. It's not this periodofignorance is bliss. So let's just take, again, going back tothepediatric example: you're a teenage, you're in university,you'reon the dating scene. When do you tell someone you have MS, doyoutell them? Do you not tell them? You're someone who's in their20s:you have a diagnosis of MS, you're dating, you talk abouthaving apermanent relationship and going on to have childrentogether. Whendo you drop the bomb that you have MS? When do youtell it toemployers? When do you tell it to in-laws? You know, whendo yousay this? That period of being ignorant is really gone now.And so,how you react, how society reacts, is something that wereally haveto look at now. When do you disclose? When don't youdisclose? It'sa very big issue.

MSDF

Very good. Thank you.

[transition music]

MSDF

Thank you for listening to Episode Seventy-six ofMultipleSclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MSDiscoveryForum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news andinformationon MS research. MSDF’s executive editor is Carol CruzanMorton.Msdiscovery.org is part of the nonprofit Accelerated CureProjectfor Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President andCEO,and Hollie Schmidt is Vice President of ScientificOperations.

Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known andnotyet known about the causes of MS and related conditions,theirpathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene.Bycommunicating this information in a way that builds bridgesamongdifferent disciplines, we hope to open new routestowardsignificant clinical advances.

[outro music]

We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussiononone of our online forums or send comments, criticisms,andsuggestions to editor@msdiscovery.org.

For Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, I'm Dan Keller.